Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,039
# 91
10-01-2012, 07:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by adamkafei View Post
I have sustained damage, sustained low damage when not buffed and even EPTW only brings that up to 500 damage per hit. using the same criteria so what are your damage figures?
can't you use the dps values that is presented on the fireing tray, when you mouse over the beam weapon?
If that value is infact 500, you are doing something wrong or it is broken. it should atleast be above 750dps if your skills and power levels are aimed at dealing dmg. meaning 120+ unbuffed or with a EPtW rotation that allows you to run it continuously with 125 weapon power.
and with that value and 3 tac consoles it should be around 800dps for each beam.

also, weapons with multiple [dmg] mods may blur this since they affect dps numbers highly but are generally inferior to critH or critD or acc. the best thing is to test it with borg MK XII weapons.
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Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,051
# 92
10-01-2012, 07:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitemepwe View Post
Most of the PvE perception of the cruiser being subpar lies in players false expectations and bad gameplay design for combat and mission completion.
For PvP, I have no idea what players are thinking as I see Cruiser do very well all the time when run by a competant player.
Upon the first point shown here I have to disagree as it contradicts the point you made on the subject earlier which I do agree with (poor mission design).

On your second point I do agree, none of my build are perfect, however even my cruiser can survive in 1 on 1 PvP and sometimes come out on top even against a superior opponent, they ALL have some or other fault in their build (again, not saying I'm perfect, I usually have more flaws than them) which I will ALWAYS exploit when it makes itself known to me (some ability they haven't countered or a manoeuvre they don't expect, more often than not its warp plasma).

However the same build in PvE doesn't do quite so well... (read: "does OK")
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,764
# 93
10-01-2012, 11:54 AM
[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by adamkafei View Post
Upon the first point shown here I have to disagree as it contradicts the point you made on the subject earlier which I do agree with (poor mission design).
I said the same thing again.
The perception of Cruisers sucking is in part in the players heads and also can be blaimed on the poor mission mechanics that do not favor any method to completion but outright damage production against unthinking over HP buffed NPC's.

Cruisers suck is an illusion. They are awesome when done properly regardless of Toon choice of user. One just has to know how things work (which is hard since something breaks at every patch) and how to use said things toegther to accomplish ones goal.

Thats how those Uber Escorts tank so well and those rare tactical Cruisers kill so well.
They know what to use when and how.

For example, If you run a Engineer in a Assualt Cruiser -Retrofit, you would want to time your nadion inversion, EPTS ability, high weapons power (like past 125), DEM to do massive damage and suffer no loss in Weapons power for a short time. It can even be done with Beam Overload or Bfaw.
Or save your attacks until you can trap the opponent with EWP, TB or somesuch then use it.

Frankly I'm starting to think that the bulk of players in STO just expect to load up everything they think is good and mash buttons in the belief that that is all that is needed to winn a fight.
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# 94
10-01-2012, 12:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitemepwe View Post

Frankly I'm starting to think that the bulk of players in STO just expect to load up everything they think is good and mash buttons in the belief that that is all that is needed to winn a fight.
And this is why I will always suck at PvP...
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Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,785
# 95
10-01-2012, 12:29 PM
Comparing Cruisers to Escorts is like unto comparing an AC-130 Spectre gunship, to an F-5, F-16, or F-22.

Spooky might not turn-and-burn with the fighters, but it's got MUCH more legs in terms of staying over the target. Same thing here with Cruisers-a properly done Cruiser build is FAR more durable while still dishing out pain, than an Escort, it just doesn't move around as much and your tactics for using it are DIFFERENT.

PvE doesn't really show this, but spend an evening cruising Kerrat with a couple friends (one escort, let's say, and one sci ship) and you'll learn something.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,051
# 96
10-01-2012, 12:31 PM
[quote=bitemepwe;5911461]
Quote:

I said the same thing again.
The perception of Cruisers sucking is in part in the players heads and also can be blaimed on the poor mission mechanics that do not favor any method to completion but outright damage production against unthinking over HP buffed NPC's.

Cruisers suck is an illusion. They are awesome when done properly regardless of Toon choice of user. One just has to know how things work (which is hard since something breaks at every patch) and how to use said things toegther to accomplish ones goal.

Thats how those Uber Escorts tank so well and those rare tactical Cruisers kill so well.
They know what to use when and how.

For example, If you run a Engineer in a Assualt Cruiser -Retrofit, you would want to time your nadion inversion, EPTS ability, high weapons power (like past 125), DEM to do massive damage and suffer no loss in Weapons power for a short time. It can even be done with Beam Overload or Bfaw.
Or save your attacks until you can trap the opponent with EWP, TB or somesuch then use it.

Frankly I'm starting to think that the bulk of players in STO just expect to load up everything they think is good and mash buttons in the belief that that is all that is needed to win a fight.
Ok, I can see that for the most part we agree, I think it could be made a little easier for the 'non-specialised builds' to do a fair amount of damage without the 'specialised builds' being overpowered even if this is accomplished by changing the range at which Beams are most effective or by increasing Beam efficiency (lower beam power drain and/increasing cruiser power drain resistance) I confess I don't run the best cruisers or the best escort (though I have min/maxed my tac for escorts ) but both are okay in PvP
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,086
# 97
10-01-2012, 05:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by adamkafei View Post
I have sustained damage, sustained low damage when not buffed and even EPTW only brings that up to 500 damage per hit. using the same criteria so what are your damage figures?
That is the way it should be, and the way it was designed to be. But in PvE where even an escort can yo-yo tank the vast majority of the content their burst DPS turns into sustained DPS and screws everything up.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 627
# 98
10-01-2012, 06:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitemepwe View Post
I say give the ESCORTS some of that good'ol Cruiser tanking if the Cruisers are to get some buffed up firepower.
If we are gonna blurr the lines to satisfy player desires then blur them in both directions or not at all.
right on.. or take away cruiser hull to match their increase in firepower... you see guys, something has to give if you get a buff... there are cruiser tanks out there who cannot be brought down easily by even 3 escorts. Again, I think you don't know how to play the game and recognize the nuances that make a cruiser class, a cruiser class.

The defiant was made to defend against the borg. It is supposed to be heavily armored.
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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 216
# 99
10-01-2012, 08:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tfomega View Post
right on.. or take away cruiser hull to match their increase in firepower... you see guys, something has to give if you get a buff... there are cruiser tanks out there who cannot be brought down easily by even 3 escorts. Again, I think you don't know how to play the game and recognize the nuances that make a cruiser class, a cruiser class.

The defiant was made to defend against the borg. It is supposed to be heavily armored.
I don't think you buffing the second lowest damage and dps output weapon group is going to affect the game in such a way as to make it suddenly unbalanced.

Using a Galaxy X with 4 purple Type 10 DHC fore and 4 crappy white type 10 turrets in back I can out dps a Galaxy X running 6 type 12 beam, two torp, dual EPtW. Or 7 Beams 1 torp, or 6 beams 2 DBB. 6 beams 2 DHC. By about a thousand.

So I'd imagine that if I managed to upgrade my DHC+Turret setup to the same level as my Beam/DBB setup and optimize my cannon play, that number would jump upwards of 2,000 or maybe even 2,500.
CRF provides a larger increase in damage output compared to any other Tactical ability in the game. FAW is gimped for single target DPS if there is another ship, but incredibly capable if there is just one ship and the appropriate abilities have been used. BO is a one and done that then gimps our dps for the next few shots or cycles, but can crit for over 12K.

As for those Cruiser Tanks that can take on 3 Escorts and not die. Neither will those Escorts. But having played that kind of a build myself in PvP I can tell you, you die from bleedthrough anyways.

Last edited by veraticus; 10-01-2012 at 09:12 PM.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 176
# 100
10-01-2012, 08:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by veraticus View Post
As for those Cruiser Tanks that can take on 3 Escorts and not die. Neither will those Escorts. But having played that kind of a build myself in PvP I can tell you, you die from bleedthrough anyways.
Actually, I'd say I die more from boredom and Sub-Nukes more than bleed-thru. There's one annoying B'rel build with transphasic cluster torpedoes and AP:Alpha that will kill me with bleed thru but I see that ship once in a blue moon.
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