Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,757
# 141
10-02-2012, 03:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexindcobra View Post
You are already stating the obvious. I didn't ask for a buff. I want the beams to be more powerful so I can keep people off my back. Your comparison of the 787 with the F22 is irrelevant because the 787 has has no weapons and is made out of just aluminum, where as military planes are composed of aluminum and kevlar composite armor to withstand flak blast. Comparing the World War II air fortresses to German fighters is more in line with the discussion. Bombers in those days were armed to the teeth with many machine gun turrets and it would take more than one fighter plane to take it down. While one fighter would distract the turret gunners the other fighter or fighters would come in blasting on the otherside.
Beams are more powerful. The disadvantage of having escort on your six is that it halves your weapon loadout meaning less DPV on him plus dince your running he can chase.
What they need to allow is maybe DBBs in the aft on Cruisers and some Science vessels.
Remember this mean KDF too.

If you like we can virtually imagine a weaponized military version though I made the comparison to focus on the handling differrences.
Roy Hatch (stryker) soldier, friend, and good man.
1945-2014
RIP
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,974
# 142
10-02-2012, 04:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexindcobra View Post
You are already stating the obvious. I didn't ask for a buff. I want the beams to be more powerful so I can keep people off my back. Your comparison of the 787 with the F22 is irrelevant because the 787 has has no weapons and is made out of just aluminum, where as military planes are composed of aluminum and kevlar composite armor to withstand flak blast. Comparing the World War II air fortresses to German fighters is more in line with the discussion. Bombers in those days were armed to the teeth with many machine gun turrets and it would take more than one fighter plane to take it down. While one fighter would distract the turret gunners the other fighter or fighters would come in blasting on the otherside.
the assesment of bombers being "armed to the teeth" must be seen in another light. The guns of a bomber were not designed to destroy incoming enemy planes, but to force them off their attack vector. The cannons on those fighters had superior range by far...but it was difficult to aim in those plains, and even harder when fired upon and doing evasive actions.
Alse the incredible numbers of those bomber squads asured that not all could be taken down before reaching the target.

the fighter escorts of those bombers actually took care of enemy fighters. Once those fighters had to return due to fuel capacity, the bomber squads suffered heavy losses due to fighter attacks.
In general though it can be said that 1 fighter against 1 bomber was death sentense for the bomber.
the light armament of bombers were never intended to take down enemy fighter planes (although they did of course) rather to make it more difficult to shoot at them.
numbers actually indicate this, that most of the luftwaffe was shot down by other fighter aircrafts.

but to your problem of keeping enemies off your back:
use vent plasma, it's a great dmg ability and clears your tail mercyless and has the escort captain rotate in his seat for sure
Tractor beam repulsor is great if you use a more sci oriented cruiser
chroniton mines or torps in the rear work excellent
full stop and reverse
you also have 4 device slot for a reason...use the deuterium surplus, not for running away but to run circles around the escort for a change
there is also this very cheap console, subspace jump, a real burner, if you don't have it up to now, get it.

and now here is the number one burner, escort captain will hate me for this: If the advantage of the escort is it's turnrate...then take it from her. Thats the secret actually, immobilization!
do not try to smash firepower against firepower, search the weakness and exploit it.
Go pro or go home

Last edited by baudl; 10-02-2012 at 04:12 PM.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 232
# 143
10-02-2012, 04:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by xiphenon View Post
This comparision is ridiculous, because it don't count in energy drain as well as skills as cannon rapid fire 3, which give cannons a huge damage boost, compared to burst only beam overload, which also drains alot of energy.

Starship Weapon Calculator gives some clue about, how DHCs realy outperform beam arrays.

Btw. a good escort pilot can easily outmanouver a 8 beam setup. If he cannot get advance against turnrate 5-8 cruiser, he should delete STO and start playing maybe minesweeper.

Thats a comment from one who started playing engineer cruiser and now plays tac escort ... for some reason my performance increased by about 500% ...
First, let me congratulate on advancing from a very bad cruiser captain to a not-THAT-bad escort captain. of course you could just have learned to fly cruisers, but ...

Oh, and relying on a tool that's not been updated for more than two seasons? Starship Weapons Calculator was last updated in Oct/2011. Combat mechanics have changed quite a bit. If you even looked at that tool, you'd notice that most of the skills it uses to calculate damage don't even exist anymore.


As you already quoted, yes, that comparison ignores drain and BOffs. You really want to go there?
- Sure, CRF3 adds ~16.7% dps (50% with a 1/3 uptime) - but why aren't you comparing it to BA:FAW3 instead? That one's pretty close at 13.3% dps (40% at 1/3 uptime).
- Energy drain is actually favouring Cruisers: take a Tac Ody (+10 power) with Saucer Seperation (+10 power) and EPtW3 (+25 power) - and the +45 total make the +15 of an Escort look really, really harmless. Don't you think that +30 power won't compensate an extra -8 drain?
- yes, DHC are super-energy efficient, despite the -12 drain, as they only fire twice each cycle while all other weapons fire four times, making drain less of an issue - but cruisers still have that one going for them.
- what escorts really bring to the table that cruisers can't match is attack patterns, namely AP:O, and usually more tactical Console and BOff slots. That puts them slightly ahead, but not far, at least not if compared against the better P2W cruisers.

Oh, and ... while a good escort captain should indeed be able to outmaneuver any cruiser: no escort can outheal battery-fueled BO salvos, while any good cruiser can outheal an escort. If you can take down cruisers, you're not fighting good ones. Good ones do all the stuff baudl mentioned, and then some.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 144
# 144
10-03-2012, 12:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by flekh View Post
Sure, CRF3 adds ~16.7% dps (50% with a 1/3 uptime) - but why aren't you comparing it to BA:FAW3 instead? That one's pretty close at 13.3% dps (40% at 1/3 uptime).
B:FAW only is usefull in 1on1 situatations with no one else around. Otherweise you will only waste your damage on some random targets around you. And, with exception to some minority of cruisers, B:FAWIII is not avaiable for cruisers, since requiring a Lt. Com. Tac slot.

Quote:
- Energy drain is actually favouring Cruisers: take a Tac Ody (+10 power) with Saucer Seperation (+10 power) and EPtW3 (+25 power) - and the +45 total make the +15 of an Escort look really, really harmless. Don't you think that +30 power won't compensate an extra -8 drain?
Who skills EPTWIII? It is just a waste of the Lt. Com. Eng. Slot, which can be filled with RSP, EWP or the most reasonable choise EPTSIII, which are all more powerfull compared to the small damage boost optained by EPTWIII.


Quote:
Oh, and ... while a good escort captain should indeed be able to outmaneuver any cruiser: no escort can outheal battery-fueled BO salvos, while any good cruiser can outheal an escort.
Yeah, nice, zombie cruisers can outheal escorts ... However, an smart escort pilot can easily retreat from every battle with a cruiser he is going to loose, so, in the best case, a cruiser can survive an attacking escort, but not beat it.

Another thing is, that in PvE healing is not required - the damage in high end content can be handeled by any good equipped escort captain without the need of any specific healer. Trading healing against damage is even reduce your potential in PvE because of the timer based mission optionals.

In PvP scorts may not have the survivability of cruisers, but they are far away from being fragile. Even an Heghtha BoP with Borg-Set and KGH shield can handle multple attackers some time before he need to retreat - the trick is to maintain high defense rating, making alot of the shots aimed at you miss.

I don't suggest to buff the damage of cruisers, but reduce the survivability of escorts compared to cruisers so that cruisers as tanks and healers become more usefull.

Last edited by xiphenon; 10-03-2012 at 12:13 AM.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 216
# 145
10-03-2012, 12:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by flekh View Post
While we're at it, let's compare ship loadouts with basic weapons:

Beam Array Mk XII: 220 DPV, 176 DPS
Cannon Mk XII: 159 DPV, 212 DPS
Dual Heavy Cannon Mk XII: 384 DPV, 256 DPS
Turret Mk XII: 99 DPV, 132 DPS

6x Beam Array + Sensor Analysis: 1373 DPS
4x Cannon+4x Turret: 1376 DPS
8x Beam Array : 1408 DPS
4x DHC+3x Turret: 1420 DPS

.... yeah, HUGE differences, right?
Truth is: before power levels and BOff powers come into play, weapon types are already near perfectly balanced with ship types.

Surprised?
From a different thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nicha0
As I read on in this thread there are a lot of terrible cruiser captains.

I combat log all my fleet alerts (its pretty consistent, STFs have too large distance gaps)
As a tac in an escort I used to average 6500 dps.

After one patch that dropped to 5500 dps, I thought I was messed up, obviously they devs changed something.

I bought fleet weapons and my numbers are back to 6500 dps, except against Tholians, they are wicked.

Now when I log fleet mates that I've coached to do damage an eng escort does 4500 dps in a non P2W ship.

A sci cruiser does 3500-4000 dps in excellsior

Normal pug cruisers 1500 dps

So is the problem cruisers or is it that people have no clue what they are doing? You'd be amazed how many tac escorts are running 800 dps.. seriously. The best pug cruiser I've ever seen is 2200 dps outside of our fleet.

Cruisers are more than fine, even 3500 dps as a sci cruiser is very capable, less than 1k difference between an escort.

And my response

Quote:
So a 2,000 DPS gap is perfectly fine to you??
Using your peak at 6,500 dps in an Escort as a Tac Captain that is almost a 44.5% dps increase over the next closest number you posted....

Lets say his numbers jump to 5,000 in a P2W escort, that is still a 27.28% difference....

I notice that there are no Eng Cruiser numbers, so lets go with Science in the Excelsior numbers since those will be very close to what an Eng will be putting out as well.

So your 6,500 DPS compared to the Eng in an Excelsior Cruiser at 3,500 dps.
At this point the Engineer needs to cover a 3,000 DPS gap to reach your numbers.
That is an insane 85.72% DPS difference. You've almost doubled his numbers! And that's not even touching peak DPS figures.

Let us say that it is the 4,000 dps number and not the 3,500 one.
62.5% difference.

Totally fair...
Base line stats for the weapons are indeed quite close to each other.
Its not until you start using Captain/BOff abilities, various DOffs and an increased number of tactical consoles that you start to see the real difference.

FAW is great, when there is fewer than two targets.
More than two and its effectiveness drops dramatically. In PvP its not a very useful skill compared to CSV or CRF and in PvE it can also function as a hazard as many of the STF's punish for random firing... which is exactly what FAW is. BO is a one and done ability, yes it does hit hard, 12k crits on accident aren't uncommon. But it doesn't compare to the burst abilities nor have the drawbacks of something like CRF. And even then, its dps/damage output is pitiful compared to any other ability out there in the game.
lets say an average hit of 8k every cd. How much damage do you think you dish out with CRF each cycle?

Anyways, I think you could buff the Beam Array damage up to that of the DHC, increase its cycle, eliminate DBB and it would still be fine. Escorts would still be the primary DD by a comfortable margin.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,916
# 146
10-03-2012, 02:11 AM
The thing is that Veraticus is right in his assessment, we could afford a slight boost to bam damage and even to their boost skills and it still wouldn't go anywhere near putting escorts out of a job, in fact I think if you escort pilots (even the best of you) if you were totally honest would LIKE to see a cruiser sit out of your way and still do some nice supporting damage, in fact as an tac in an escort I would LOVE this in an STF, ISE generators would be easier to manage as the team wouldn't be waiting so long for the cruiser to catch up.

Also as an engineer in a cruiser I'd feel more useful to a team, not only could I then dish out some fair heals AND not get in the way of you escorts because I can deal some nice support damage without having to get up close and personal.

as much as you would love to say I'm wrong this would boost team DPS, which happens to be the most important thing in the game, and would give you escort pilots the ability to relax in PvE as the team wouldn't need you to deal ALL the damage thus when you do do that awesome damage dealing thing you do (alpha striking a KASE gateway and bringing it from 40% to 0% in a matter of seconds, yes, been there, done that) you are more appreciated for it and it would keep you on your toes in PvP as suddenly them cruisers , who I admit don't have the best pilots, would be all the more damgerous.

So if anything this is win win for eveyone
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,974
# 147
10-03-2012, 03:14 AM
well this discussion is going in circles for some time. Despite all this threads that demand a buff for beams or cruisers, cryptic won't do anything in that direction. They balance around hard numbers and statistics...and those just do not support the claims that a buff is needed.
Go pro or go home
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,757
# 148
10-03-2012, 05:52 AM
[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by veraticus View Post
Base line stats for the weapons are indeed quite close to each other.
Its not until you start using Captain/BOff abilities, various DOffs and an increased number of tactical consoles that you start to see the real difference.
Captain abilities is part of the choice you make when you decide to create a character. If you do not like not being the heavy hitter then do not choose Engineer over Tactical. I do not see why the Engineer class suddenly needs a damage boost to compete with a different class designed to be the damage dealing class.
Anyone can use the DOffs and the number of tactical consoles on a ship is a part of said ships design, so while yes once you add all these factors into the equation the damage numbers start to have real differences its not unexpected as the classes start to show thier proffessional bonuses, of which only the tactical has direct damage multipliers.

Quote:
FAW is great, when there is fewer than two targets.
More than two and its effectiveness drops dramatically. In PvP its not a very useful skill compared to CSV or CRF and in PvE it can also function as a hazard as many of the STF's punish for random firing... which is exactly what FAW is.
BFAW is not a damage increasing skill though and never was intended to be in combat. BFAW is a pet killing skill designed back when the KDF had the only pets and the feds where tired of trying to counter them. Its not a damage dealing skill unless you are hoping to Proc a target or do damage indirectly via DEM or Sensor Analysis etc.

Quote:
BO is a one and done ability, yes it does hit hard, 12k crits on accident aren't uncommon. But it doesn't compare to the burst abilities nor have the drawbacks of something like CRF. And even then, its dps/damage output is pitiful compared to any other ability out there in the game.
lets say an average hit of 8k every cd. How much damage do you think you dish out with CRF each cycle?
The differences in damage between BO and CRF is highly buffed by the Tactical captain skills of ApA, TacFleet, GDF and TI3 (for speed) over every other class in the game as befits the class choice. I expect a tactical captain to ride in a do high damage with his weapons of choice. When said abilites are buffed 40k BO3s can happen and 8k CRF3 can happen easily if timed right and even the difference between the two is only 8k, with BO3 coming out on top.

Comparing damage out put between abilities is fine but does not show any differences that are not to be expected in abilities that have different Tiers and can be buffed better by one class (whos function is damage output) over the other classes (whos function is not direct damage output). Its a moot point and is likened to comparing oneself to a professional shooter. You may wish to be more deadly and hit the bullseye as often as the Pro but without his skills you will not.

Buffing Cruisers is not an option becuase its a direct favortism to one class of vessels over the others and doing such should be avoided in my opinion.

Buffing beams may work but all the Beam buffing BOff abilities are one Tier lower than the highest cannon Ability and it would be easy to unbalance the game if not doen properly.
I would prefer a new class of beam Array be designed and implemented that falls into the area between a BA and DBB, say a heavy beam array with a 180 degree field of fire.
Or institute some new Beam and Cannon BOff abilities to fill in the gap, lower CRF down to T1 through T3, etc.

Overall the differences in direct damage out put between the Tac/Escort and all other vessels is functioning as intended consider tac is the damage class and Cruiser and Science are not.
The differences in damage out between the Character classes seems right as well since the Tactical can greatly buff damage in proportion to how much the Engineer can buff thier healing. Science so far is the only real loser as Cryptic has yet to balance them and make them useful at the same time.

This debate has become circular and is a debate as old as gaming itself, the debate of Why is my Cleric (Engineer/Cruiser) not as dangerous as your fighter(Tactical/Escort)?
The answer is the same as it ever was, He is not suppossed to be otherwise he would be a fighter.
Roy Hatch (stryker) soldier, friend, and good man.
1945-2014
RIP
Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 312
# 149
10-03-2012, 05:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by baudl View Post
the assesment of bombers being "armed to the teeth" must be seen in another light. The guns of a bomber were not designed to destroy incoming enemy planes, but to force them off their attack vector. The cannons on those fighters had superior range by far...but it was difficult to aim in those plains, and even harder when fired upon and doing evasive actions.
Alse the incredible numbers of those bomber squads asured that not all could be taken down before reaching the target.

the fighter escorts of those bombers actually took care of enemy fighters. Once those fighters had to return due to fuel capacity, the bomber squads suffered heavy losses due to fighter attacks.
In general though it can be said that 1 fighter against 1 bomber was death sentense for the bomber.
the light armament of bombers were never intended to take down enemy fighter planes (although they did of course) rather to make it more difficult to shoot at them.
numbers actually indicate this, that most of the luftwaffe was shot down by other fighter aircrafts.

but to your problem of keeping enemies off your back:
use vent plasma, it's a great dmg ability and clears your tail mercyless and has the escort captain rotate in his seat for sure
Tractor beam repulsor is great if you use a more sci oriented cruiser
chroniton mines or torps in the rear work excellent
full stop and reverse
you also have 4 device slot for a reason...use the deuterium surplus, not for running away but to run circles around the escort for a change
there is also this very cheap console, subspace jump, a real burner, if you don't have it up to now, get it.

and now here is the number one burner, escort captain will hate me for this: If the advantage of the escort is it's turnrate...then take it from her. Thats the secret actually, immobilization!
do not try to smash firepower against firepower, search the weakness and exploit it.
Thanks for the tips :-)

Hopefully the OP uses his time now to learn to play instead of making useless posts.
(And hopefully Cryptic ups the damage on cruisers OR changes the STF )
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,757
# 150
10-03-2012, 06:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by xiphenon View Post

In PvP scorts may not have the survivability of cruisers, but they are far away from being fragile. Even an Heghtha BoP with Borg-Set and KGH shield can handle multple attackers some time before he need to retreat - the trick is to maintain high defense rating, making alot of the shots aimed at you miss.

I don't suggest to buff the damage of cruisers, but reduce the survivability of escorts compared to cruisers so that cruisers as tanks and healers become more usefull.
Cruisers and even science vessels benefit from that same Equipment set-up and have better access to higher heals to boot, the only extra bonus an Escort has is an easy ability to run from combat over the Cruiser and a 10% higher Bonus Defense for moving at full speed.
Escorts are far from fragile, yes, but Cruiser are not made of tissue paper iether and have the same survial options as the escorts in this case, aside from the bonus 10% defense allowing them to tank multiple attackers without having to run away as often.

Nerfing the survival of Escorts on this reasoning doesn not make sense as you are gimping a class of vessel for learning how to use the abilities and options provided by the system itself thats open to all classes.
Roy Hatch (stryker) soldier, friend, and good man.
1945-2014
RIP
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