Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,766
# 161
10-04-2012, 10:26 AM
They need to balance the game so over whelming Burst damage is not required to quickly kill a NPC foe in the high level STFs and endgame content.

They need to balance the game so over whelming Burst damage is not required to overcome the even higher Burst healing capacity of the Engie/Cruiser and Science classes of the game.
Richard Hamilton (1975-2014)
goodbye good friend. We will see you in the DMZ in the sky oneday, save a shot for us.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,133
# 162
10-04-2012, 10:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitemepwe View Post
They need to balance the game so over whelming Burst damage is not required to quickly kill a NPC foe in the high level STFs and endgame content.

They need to balance the game so over whelming Burst damage is not required to overcome the even higher Burst healing capacity of the Engie/Cruiser and Science classes of the game.
I second this, hence my suggestion, I think it's quite agreeable for all involved parties, if not it can of course be adapted but I think it is the first constructive thing in this thread or a while
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 232
# 163
10-04-2012, 11:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by adamkafei View Post
Then let me put an idea on the table here.

How about if at 5km a 6 beam cruiser with 3 consoles dedicated to the energy type used could sit unbuffed and so 400-600 DPH (Damage per hit, as a cruiser this figure is more informative than DPS) BUT this figure would not climb by more than 100 at 1km, thus giving cruisers the ability to stay out of the say of escorts, get more out of their firing arcs and monitor the battlefield all from a good cruiser suiting distance. We all know cruisers were never supposed to get up close to enemies the way escorts are hence the difference in manoeuvrability:

Cruisers are meant slow with large firing arcs so they can stay out of the danger-zone and still land a good amount of damage effortlessly.
Escorts are meant to be quick with small firing arcs so they can get up close dodge a lot of fire and when they manage to hit something with a good high powered volley it hurts and vice versa.

What I am proposing gives cruisers the battlefield overview they were always meant to have, takes advantage of their speed, turn rate and when the escorts get within their 1-3km zone (for which they were designed) they will do lots more damage than the cruisers, so I'm still not putting escorts out of a job but giving cruisers a much appreciated ability to do some easy damage (for the less specialised of us).

I think even the escort pilots would like this, they get us out of their area, we can do a far better job of laying down support damage (as such they can relax a little), we can better see what's going on and thereby better co-ordinate our team support and lead groups with our increased line of sight.

Please do feel free to play with the figures a little (I did draft these from a mix of the top of my head and my exp pre season six combined with the cruisers primary role).
Wait, now you want to NERF Cruisers?
I mean, at least my beams already deal ~700-900 damage per hit, even at 8-9km range, using EPtW cycling, and ~600 unbuffed.
And that's as an Engineer in a Mirror Assault Cruiser (=Assault Cruiser with Shovel-look).
Your 400-600 DPH would translate to 1920-2880 DPS ... and i currenly get 3.5k+ (closer to 4k if I don't get oneshot).
What the F%$& are you smoking?

Let me be totally blunt here:
YOU SUCK!
I don't know if you suck Donkey-, Elephant- or even Brontosaur-balls, but ...
YOU SUCK!
Get that in your head.

If Cryptic buffed Cruisers so that YOU would be competetive with even a halfway competent Escort, then a well-played Cruiser with a Tac-captain would break past 10k DPS, sustained!

Use the time you spend spamming the forum with your crack-pipe-fueled ideas, and instead get some basic skills, at least equal to a trained monkey. And lay of the drugs.
Maybe you'll see then just how bad you were, and just how ridiculous your ideas are ....
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 598
# 164
10-04-2012, 11:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitemepwe View Post
Beams are more powerful. The disadvantage of having escort on your six is that it halves your weapon loadout meaning less DPV on him plus dince your running he can chase.
What they need to allow is maybe DBBs in the aft on Cruisers and some Science vessels.
Remember this mean KDF too.

If you like we can virtually imagine a weaponized military version though I made the comparison to focus on the handling differrences.
I don't have to run from an escort for him to get on my back. Escorts can fly around me in circles faster than I can turn in one direction. The fact that you made that statement shows that you never, ever flew a slow turning cruiser in a PVP match. Every cruiser pilot knows how fast escorts can fly around your ship.

No, I can't virtually imagine a weaponized military version of a 787 because, in my 13 years of military service, I have learned how much different the military planes are made and perform in comparison to civilian airliners. The closest things that come to an airliner in the military are the cargo transports, they are not armed with weapons, just coutermeasures. Military planes' wings are sept at a different angle than civilian planes for added manuverability to evade attack. Civilian planes are built for comfort and will never have to roll or do loops. I was soldier who deployed many times using civilian planes, C-130's, C-141's and C-17's. In one of my in country deployments, I experienced zero G for 2 minutes in a C-17. We passingers were not ready for the steep decent and went flying with all of our gear. A C-17 can stop in less than 200 meters on a runway when landing. In one of my Iraq deployments, I saw this with my own eyes, and this plane happen to be picking us up. In another Iraq deployements, we took off with such a steep climb that my buddies to the left and right of me passed out from the G forces, and the plane did a half loop and a full role. They flew like this in combat situations to make it harder for weapons lock from Stinger gunning terrorist below. You will never see that in a civilian plane. I use World War 2 as a better comparison because those were the days when we had dogfights between larger planes and smaller ones. Plus the larger planes were armed with guns as well as bombs. Today, we don't fight that way anymore because most of the enemies we fight don't have large impressive air forces, and most of the attacks on air come from the ground. The last time we had dogfights were in the Gulf War, there were no bombers under threat of other planes.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,766
# 165
10-04-2012, 12:17 PM
[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexindcobra View Post
I don't have to run from an escort for him to get on my back. Escorts can fly around me in circles faster than I can turn in one direction. The fact that you made that statement shows that you never, ever flew a slow turning cruiser in a PVP match. Every cruiser pilot knows how fast escorts can fly around your ship.
I've PvP'ed in the BortasQu in both Kerrat and the Ques. I know just how slow a Cruiser can be on its on without using something to boost thier speed and turn.

I never said you had to run form an escort to let them get in your six, only that once there they are happy becuase all you can do is try to run and shoot at them with just 4 Beam Arrays, some mines, etc.
Still just jumping to conclusions, you are.


Quote:
No, I can't virtually imagine a weaponized military version of a 787 because, in my 13 years of military service, I have learned how much different the military planes are made and perform in comparison to civilian airliners. The closest things that come to an airliner in the military are the cargo transports, they are not armed with weapons, just coutermeasures. Military planes' wings are sept at a different angle than civilian planes for added manuverability to evade attack. Civilian planes are built for comfort and will never have to roll or do loops. I was soldier who deployed many times using civilian planes, C-130's, C-141's and C-17's. In one of my in country deployments, I experienced zero G for 2 minutes in a C-17. We passingers were not ready for the steep decent and went flying with all of our gear. A C-17 can stop in less than 200 meters on a runway when landing. In one of my Iraq deployments, I saw this with my own eyes, and this plane happen to be picking us up. In another Iraq deployements, we took off with such a steep climb that my buddies to the left and right of me passed out from the G forces, and the plane did a half loop and a full role. They flew like this in combat situations to make it harder for weapons lock from Stinger gunning terrorist below. You will never see that in a civilian plane. I use World War 2 as a better comparison because those were the days when we had dogfights between larger planes and smaller ones. Plus the larger planes were armed with guns as well as bombs. Today, we don't fight that way anymore because most of the enemies we fight don't have large impressive air forces, and most of the attacks on air come from the ground. The last time we had dogfights were in the Gulf War, there were no bombers under threat of other planes.
So you lack the ability to imagine hypothetical situations?

and thanks for the romp down memory lane.
Richard Hamilton (1975-2014)
goodbye good friend. We will see you in the DMZ in the sky oneday, save a shot for us.

Last edited by bitemepwe; 10-04-2012 at 12:58 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,133
# 166
10-04-2012, 12:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by flekh View Post
Wait, now you want to NERF Cruisers?
I mean, at least my beams already deal ~700-900 damage per hit, even at 8-9km range, using EPtW cycling, and ~600 unbuffed.
And that's as an Engineer in a Mirror Assault Cruiser (=Assault Cruiser with Shovel-look).
Your 400-600 DPH would translate to 1920-2880 DPS ... and i currenly get 3.5k+ (closer to 4k if I don't get oneshot).
My beams manage a little over 500 DPH at 5km with EPtW cycling I scrape 300 unbuffed so for me this would be an upgrade and this is AFTER I refined my character and ship build in favour of beams

So on these grounds yes I do suck, apparently I suck majorly but me being me I won't deny that as I have no self respect so yeah, call me what you will.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 232
# 167
10-04-2012, 12:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by adamkafei View Post
My beams manage a little over 500 DPH at 5km with EPtW cycling I scrape 300 unbuffed so for me this would be an upgrade and this is AFTER I refined my character and ship build in favour of beams

So on these grounds yes I do suck, apparently I suck majorly but me being me I won't deny that as I have no self respect so yeah, call me what you will.
Fine. Now you can choose between three options:
A) Cryptic hates YOU! YOU, personally. And makes your Cruiser deal less damage than everyone else's.
B) I'm using hacks, or some kind of black sorcery, or have sold my soul to the gaming-devil for a DPS-boost.
C) You suck, you're a Noob, and if you want to break out of that cycle of failing - complaining - failing even harder, you have to start listening to advice instead.

What will it be?

This "Cruiser sucks"-complaining is not helping. At all. Just to the contrary. Since everyone seems to think so, since it seems to be accepted truth, people ACCEPT that their Cruisers fail, and deal no damage. They don't seem to know that it doesn't have to be that way, so they don't even try.
These threads actually do harm.

Make a thread in the Shipyard "Why do I suck at Cruiser, post your full build (weapons, components, BOffs, DOffs) and keybinds, and I'll tell you excactly how to do it.
Then try it, and come back after you've learned what a Cruiser can really do - is that so hard?
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,133
# 168
10-04-2012, 12:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by flekh View Post
Make a thread in the Shipyard "Why do I suck at Cruiser, post your full build (weapons, components, BOffs, DOffs) and keybinds, and I'll tell you excactly how to do it.
Then try it, and come back after you've learned what a Cruiser can really do - is that so hard?
Ok... I'll start yet another *sigh*
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,766
# 169
10-04-2012, 01:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by adamkafei View Post
Ok... I'll start yet another *sigh*
Out of curiuosity, did your first one not help? at all?
Richard Hamilton (1975-2014)
goodbye good friend. We will see you in the DMZ in the sky oneday, save a shot for us.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,235
# 170
10-04-2012, 01:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexindcobra View Post
The reason why alot of cruisers can't compete in PVP and PVE with escorts is because the devs are bent of making escorts do everything and be all around better ships. If thats not the case, then why are almost every new ship that they come out with are escorts and armed with cannons? Why is it that torpedos, being the cruiser's most powerful weapon, does little to nothing to shields? Cruisers on the Fed side can't arm heavy cannons like they can on the Klingon side.

To balance out things and slow the drive of everyone rushing to get an escort to use in PVP, they need to either bring up the damage level of beams or bring down the damage level in heavy cannons. There is no guide or manual saying that cannons are better than beams. In Memory Alpha say the the disruptor cannons have more energy then standard phaser banks but took longer to recharge. Standerd phasers in that time were Type 8, while the Galaxy class was armed with Type X and Sovereign was armed with type XII. Those later mentioned phasers were not standard and were mostly on the new most important ships. Now that this is the 25th Century, most ships with the phaser strips would be using type X or type XII phaser arrays. With that being said, the power outputs for cannons and beams should be the same and the damage should be the same. That would make more ships in this game more even, especially in pvp. Lets see if the Devs are really interested in the balance of the game or are they just blowing smoke up everyone's ass.
Excuse me if I sound rude, but how does a cruiser dishing out the same DPS as a escort while still benefiting from vastly superior hull and tanking ability seem like balance?

Escorts that are able to tank well do so because their pilots are skilled at it.
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