Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,984
# 251
10-08-2012, 09:08 AM
I didn't mention anything to do with cannon skills, I am well aware of cannons and thy hold even less hope for a cruiser than do Beam arrays, what I'm trying to fin is a compromise between the BA arc and DBB damage
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,764
# 252
10-08-2012, 09:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by adamkafei View Post
Well I apologise for my opening comment on that, with college and this and other stuff I've been quite stressed. But i think that post energy drain my idea is still viable, Yes I think maybe the arc or 270 is a tad much or perhaps the drain a tad low, maybe make it 11 or 12 win line with the DHCs we're trying to compete with but to get a 200 deg FA to work broadsiding would need a lot of on the spot manoeuvrability which cruisers just don't have so I'm suggesting we use what we already have with slightly lower damage output, perhaps bring it down to 250-260 DPV and give it a 225-250 FA? putting it about half way between BA damage and FA and the DBB damage and your suggested FA for it.

how does that sound?
I'm stuck on the ideas of;

Heavy beam Array
fore mount only
90 degree firing arc
400 DPV (200 DPS) base white mark12

Dual Beam Bank
for and aft mount
200 degree firing arc
287 DPV (229 DPS) base white mark12

So the fed cruiser player will have to learn how to wiggle to use the DBBs on a broadside, or how to come at a target at an odd angle or just learn to use Turrets in the rear if they wish for a all forward DPS build on thier cruiser.
KDF Battle Cruiser have had to adapt to using single cannons* the same way and they have only a 180 degree firing arc and hit for less damage {159 DPV (212 DPS)}. The Cruiser player is not suffering by these changes.

Frankly the above is all win-win the Cruiser player

New BOff abilities;

*Fire for Effect tactical BOff ability : a cannon rapid fire clone ability for beams but starting at T1 so every cruiser can have access to it.
Quote:
Ability/User Rank CD SPR Ability Effects
Rank I: Ensign 30s 500 Increases the number of shots fired by each cannon volley for 10 sec.
Improves base damage by approx. 30%

Rank II: Lieutenant 30s 750 Increases the number of shots fired by each cannon volley for 10 sec.
Improves base damage by approx. 40%

Rank III: Lt. Commander 30s 1000 Increases the number of shots fired by each cannon volley for 10 sec.
Improves base damage by approx. 50%
Overcharged Volley tactical BOff ability : a beam overload clone ability for cannons that also starts at Tier 1
Quote:
Ability/User Rank CD SPR Ability Effects
Rank I: Ensign 30s 50 Upgrades your next beam attack.
Inflicts approximately 600% standard beam damage.
After firing, drains weapon power by 50.

Rank II: Lieutenant 30s 100 Upgrades your next beam attack.
Inflicts approximately 725% standard beam damage.
After firing, drains weapon power by 50.

Rank III: Lt Commander 30s 150 Upgrades your next beam attack.
Inflicts approximately 850% standard beam damage.
After firing, drains weapon power by 50
So now the Cruiser get a new BOff ability to up thier firepower with thier new and newly redesigned weapons and the Cannon users get a new BOff ability to balance it out.

and lastly;

Bump the base turnrate of Cruisers, Battle Crusiers and the Guramba in Siege mode across the board by 1-2 points and adjust the inertia ratings to balance.

another win-win for the Cruiser as you now have a more nimble vessel to play with without infringing on the Escort.

* Unless you wish to adapt the Single Cannons up to a 250 degree firing arc and the Dual Cannons to a 90 degree firing arc to be fair to escorts.


Quote:
Originally Posted by adamkafei View Post
I didn't mention anything to do with cannon skills, I am well aware of cannons and thy hold even less hope for a cruiser than do Beam arrays, what I'm trying to fin is a compromise between the BA arc and DBB damage
Its not gonna happen at a firing arc you like with the damage stat you like and still come between the Beam Array and the DBB, and be fair and balanced.
Richard Hamilton (1975-2014)
goodbye good friend. We will see you in the DMZ in the sky oneday, save a shot for us.

Last edited by bitemepwe; 10-08-2012 at 09:24 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 598
# 253
10-08-2012, 10:02 AM
The fact that everybody is complaining about their ships on a thread about weapons, show that there is an imbalance. I think the weapons are a big part of the imbalance. I am not asking cruisrs to be armed with cannons because that is not canon in Star Trek, so to stay canon, make the beams more powerful, or make a Heavy beam array to keep up with the DHC. They also need to to come up with a second FAW that stays on your intended target instead of wasting shots on other targets causing unintended agro to yourself.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,764
# 254
10-08-2012, 10:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexindcobra View Post
The fact that everybody is complaining about their ships on a thread about weapons, show that there is an imbalance. I think the weapons are a big part of the imbalance. I am not asking cruisrs to be armed with cannons because that is not canon in Star Trek, so to stay canon, make the beams more powerful, or make a Heavy beam array to keep up with the DHC. They also need to to come up with a second FAW that stays on your intended target instead of wasting shots on other targets causing unintended agro to yourself.

*Heavy beam Array
fore mount only
90 degree firing arc
400 DPV (200 DPS) base white mark12

Dual Beam Bank
for and aft mount
200 degree firing arc
287 DPV (229 DPS) base white mark12

New BOff abilities;

*Fire for Effect tactical BOff ability : a cannon rapid fire clone ability for beams but starting at T1 so every cruiser can have access to it.

Quote:
Ability/User Rank CD SPR Ability Effects
Rank I: Ensign 30s 500 Increases the number of shots fired by each cannon volley for 10 sec.
Improves base damage by approx. 30%

Rank II: Lieutenant 30s 750 Increases the number of shots fired by each cannon volley for 10 sec.
Improves base damage by approx. 40%

Rank III: Lt. Commander 30s 1000 Increases the number of shots fired by each cannon volley for 10 sec.
Improves base damage by approx. 50%

Overcharged Volley tactical BOff ability : a beam overload clone ability for cannons that also starts at Tier 1

Quote:
Ability/User Rank CD SPR Ability Effects
Rank I: Ensign 30s 50 Upgrades your next beam attack.
Inflicts approximately 600% standard beam damage.
After firing, drains weapon power by 50.

Rank II: Lieutenant 30s 100 Upgrades your next beam attack.
Inflicts approximately 725% standard beam damage.
After firing, drains weapon power by 50.

Rank III: Lt Commander 30s 150 Upgrades your next beam attack.
Inflicts approximately 850% standard beam damage.
After firing, drains weapon power by 50

* Heavy Beam Bank and the new Faw.
Richard Hamilton (1975-2014)
goodbye good friend. We will see you in the DMZ in the sky oneday, save a shot for us.

Last edited by bitemepwe; 10-08-2012 at 10:47 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,984
Well as much as I love the idea I think it would eliminate to desire for anyone to want to use single beams much like single beams eliminate any need for single cannons
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 232
# 256
10-08-2012, 10:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by adamkafei View Post
But i think that post energy drain my idea is still viable
That's where you're totally wrong.
Cruisers don't have any problem with drain, they can reach extremely high power levels. This is what's currently possible:
+10 Weapon Performance (technically: 9.9)
+5 Warp Core Efficiency (technicaly: 4.95)
+5 Assimilated Console
+10 M.A.C.O. Shield
+10 Tac Ody
+10 Saucer Seperation
+25 EPtW3
That already puts you at 175 Weapon Power!
Six-beam-broadsides at maximum power!
Eight-beams still at 105 power!
No Escort can even get close. And if you'd read this post, you'd know that without power drain, 8xBA (as it is!) will put out the same DPS as 4xDHC+3xTurret.
Just that Escorts can't get to the same levels of Weapon Power that cruisers can reach - Escorts shoot their weapon loadout at an average power level of 85-90, not 105, nor 125.
Means: Cruiser already have up to 20% advantage in base-damage output, and most of the Escort's Tac-BOff advantage is used up compensating.
Even the less powerful (and less costly or even free ones) have the option to run at the same average power level or higher than an Escort.

Any buff to Beams, and you'll completely break the high-end P2W Cruisers, which already deal Escort-damage.
Is that so hard to understand?


Quote:
Originally Posted by bitemepwe View Post
I'm stuck on the ideas of;

Heavy beam Array
fore mount only
90 degree firing arc
400 DPV (200 DPS) base white mark12

Dual Beam Bank
for and aft mount
200 degree firing arc
287 DPV (229 DPS) base white mark12

So the fed cruiser player will have to learn how to wiggle to use the DBBs on a broadside, or how to come at a target at an odd angle or just learn to use Turrets in the rear if they wish for a all forward DPS build on thier cruiser.
KDF Battle Cruiser have had to adapt to using single cannons* the same way and they have only a 180 degree firing arc and hit for less damage {159 DPV (212 DPS)}. The Cruiser player is not suffering by these changes.
Frankly the above is all win-win the Cruiser player

New BOff abilities;

*Fire for Effect tactical BOff ability : a cannon rapid fire clone ability for beams but starting at T1 so every cruiser can have access to it.


Overcharged Volley tactical BOff ability : a beam overload clone ability for cannons that also starts at Tier 1


So now the Cruiser get a new BOff ability to up thier firepower with thier new and newly redesigned weapons and the Cannon users get a new BOff ability to balance it out.

and lastly;

Bump the base turnrate of Cruisers, Battle Crusiers and the Guramba in Siege mode across the board by 1-2 points and adjust the inertia ratings to balance.

another win-win for the Cruiser as you now have a more nimble vessel to play with without infringing on the Escort.

* Unless you wish to adapt the Single Cannons up to a 250 degree firing arc and the Dual Cannons to a 90 degree firing arc to be fair to escorts.


Its not gonna happen at a firing arc you like with the damage stat you like and still come between the Beam Array and the DBB, and be fair and balanced.
So you want to:
Give DHC-boats the ability to one-shot people with a cannon-overload?
Without having them pay the price of having to sacrifice a DHC for a DBB+BO?
Man, you're a sneaky one.

Not to mention the ideas of that Lance-of-Death you guys call HBA, broadside Single Cannons and wide-angle DBBs.
Wheeeeeeeeeew.


And since when do you run Single Cannons on KDF Battle Cruisers?
Mine at least are using DCs (more efficient than DHC if you can compensate for drain, which Battle Cruisers can do - at high power levels they beat DHC for DPS).
Hell, even in a Bort, the idea of Single Cannons is just bad - dual Aux2Damp lets you use DC/DHC just fine, even on the whale.


Last but not least: do you really hate Science Ships so much that you want to see them out-maneuvered by Cruisers? I mean, c'mon, if there's any ship type currently in the game that DOES have a DPS disadvantage, it'd be Sci (not by too much, either, but they get fairly squishy if build for DPS) - and now you want to take away their main advantage over cruisers?
Or ... did you want to buff them, too, and have just forgotten to mention it? Which, while nice, would make THEM intrude on Escorts. Hmmm, maybe buff Escorts, too? And of course BoPs!
Ummmmmmm .... yeah ....


/sigh


Two more things:
1. Before someone accuses me of advertising for the Ody, or for promoting Pay-to-Win ... I don't. I'm pointing it out!
If you try to make a Star Cruiser deal Escort-dps, you turn P2W ships into broken abominations that one-shot everything around them. And they certainly do exist, you can't just pretend they don't.
Which means you have to balance around them.
If you want to get rid of P2W, which is actually something I'd support: make a different thread for that, but you better be prepared and come with a good idea how Cryptic/PWE can make money instead. Many tried before, and they all failed.

2. @hereticknight085: /hug
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,764
# 257
10-08-2012, 11:09 AM
[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by flekh View Post
So you want to:
Give DHC-boats the ability to one-shot people with a cannon-overload?
We have a Beam Overload and no one seems to mind.
Giving the cannons a clone of BO seemed fair if the beams get a clone of CRF.
One DHC buffed by a Tac with ApA, TF, FoMM, GDF, ApO seems no more OP than doing the same with a DBB.

Quote:
Without having them pay the price of having to sacrifice a DHC for a DBB+BO?
hardly a sacrifice since one can double tap that BO+DBB very easily. If a connon overload is too much at T1 to T3 then bump the ability to start at LT and make it a T2 to T4 level ability so the user must choose betwen it or CRF3 or ApO3.


Quote:
Not to mention the ideas of that Lance-of-Death you guys call HBA
a 90 degree fa replacement for the DBB seemed fair as one still has to manuever to use them in combat.

Quote:
broadside Single Cannons
Not an unwarranted change if the DDB gets a wider firing arc considering they do less damage.

Quote:
and wide-angle DBBs.
Seemed neccassary to make the idea of a Heavy Beam array fit in the system but still make the standard beam array a viable choice for its wider arc.


Quote:
And since when do you run Single Cannons on KDF Battle Cruisers?
I have run Single cannons on a BC. Not great but not too shabby iether if one is not trying to be the DD of the group.

Quote:
Last but not least: do you really hate Science Ships so much that you want to see them out-maneuvered by Cruisers?
You mean do I hate the Atrox, Adv. Research vessel, Adv. Research vessel- refit, and the Fleet Adv. Research vessel? Those Science vessels ahve a base 5 turnrate with a maxxed turnrate of 9.
Every other Science vessel in the game has a turnrate of 10 to 15 depending on the vessel chosen. So how is science bing out manuevered by teh Cruiser?
Richard Hamilton (1975-2014)
goodbye good friend. We will see you in the DMZ in the sky oneday, save a shot for us.

Last edited by bitemepwe; 10-08-2012 at 11:29 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,694
# 258
10-08-2012, 11:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexindcobra View Post
The fact that everybody is complaining about their ships on a thread about weapons, show that there is an imbalance. I think the weapons are a big part of the imbalance. I am not asking cruisrs to be armed with cannons because that is not canon in Star Trek, so to stay canon, make the beams more powerful, or make a Heavy beam array to keep up with the DHC. They also need to to come up with a second FAW that stays on your intended target instead of wasting shots on other targets causing unintended agro to yourself.
That "second faw", a Boff power that does more damage to a single target is called BO. Get some DBBs and slap on some RCS consoles. Sheesh, next you'll be asking for superbeams that work at max range too, or when you figure out BO you'll want some sort of "heavy beam" with a higher spike but with the deceptively same DPS.. oh wait...
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,694
# 259
10-08-2012, 11:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hereticknight085 View Post
Flekh is right. Cruisers aren't broken. Just used wrong. I never thought I would be saying this until last night when I finally broke down and got myself the Oddy 3 pack. Got in the tac oddy, put on saucer sep, and went for a shakedown cruise. A few stfs later and lots of MAJOR surprise on my part, I was taken. Cruisers can put out decent dps. I have proven this time and time again with my AC after I did some modifications to it's BOff layout and DOffs. I also changed my playstyle a little and stopped doing long range bombardment and closed in to around 4-6k. I also changed my positioning so that I could keep all my weapons on target. Basic things I should have done to begin with.

I re-applied this learning to the Odyssey Tac Cruiser, and then as soon as I hit saucer sep, it was insane. I was EASILY, and I say again EASILY maintaining 900-1100 per shot. PER SHOT. Even with all my arrays firing I never dropped below 700 per shot. And if I hit EPtW, I never dropped below 100 power (except once and that was because I got hit by a polaron proc) and with EPtW active I consistently was hitting 1000-1300 per shot (with AP:B and TT active, YES, THE TT MATTERS). Sufficed to say, I think my weapons power was around 160 with EPtW active, and around 140 without it. Throw in saucer sep it went up to 150 without EPtW, and with EPtW, 170. My dps was around 5k easiliy. EASILY. Which I find to be a mite distressing since before my DPS was only around 3500.

But flekh is right. Cruisers can put out some pretty heavy dps and still be tanky as balls. My oddy's shields almost never went down, even with saucer sep active, and when they did, the stupid thing just would not die (something about 50k hp with reinforced armor). So I will say that yes, if you don't get certain cruisers and just use the free ones, you will be a little weaker. But that's the name of the game. As was pointed out, P2W. I paid. And am now able to win a little better (and believe me, that 50 bucks hurt lol...). However the really amazing part that had me blown away was the fact I was able to put out those kinds of numbers and was STILL ABLE TO HEAL AND TANK. It's crazy. But true.

So it's not a learn to play really. Me saying that would probably make me throw up as I typed it. But it's more of a learn what is proven to work, and then change it and make it your own without losing the main "MAKES IT WORK" part. I did that. I looked up what worked, modified it to match me, and then used it. And it worked. And everyone who says the Oddy sucks, you can blow it out your rear, that thing is amazing.
Congratulations! Everything seems different from this end doesn't it? Just the realization not everything is as bleak as it seemed opens up a whole lot of possibilities, every ship is now a treasure chest of potential. Some more than others.. Ok, some a LOT more than others lol, but you get the idea.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,764
# 260
10-08-2012, 11:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by adamkafei View Post
Well as much as I love the idea I think it would eliminate to desire for anyone to want to use single beams much like single beams eliminate any need for single cannons
Single beam arrays are still the only option to make a Broadside boat and having a CRF clone BOff ability for beams allows them to be still valuable and serve that purpose.

If a Cruiser player wants a more damaging build they will have to choose Heavy Beam arrays or DBBs to do that higher damage and the draw back to doing so is the smaller firing arcs of those weapons that require the pilot to manuever in combat to strike an opponent.
Richard Hamilton (1975-2014)
goodbye good friend. We will see you in the DMZ in the sky oneday, save a shot for us.
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