Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,845
# 61
09-30-2012, 03:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by baudl View Post
90% of those have no idea how to build a good cruiser/sci vessel. It is only logical that this mass of people believe cruisers and beams need a buff, because they can't make it work the way they want it to.
I know full well you will count me in this 90% not because I don't know how to build a cruiser (heck I've flicked through the PvP guides, just none of their builds fitted me) and as I have previously stated I had a working build but with the introduction of season 6 my damage was halved and my hull buffed but then they took the hull buff away leaving me nothing to nothing to show for my lack of damage
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 598
# 62
09-30-2012, 08:30 AM
Cannon arc does nothing but cripple are cruiser that tries to use them because it can't turn on a dime like an escort. Cruisers have to use weapons 90 degrees or higher to compensate for lack in turn rate. If the most powerful weapons are mounted on the quickest turning ship, then firing acs are irrelevant. Thats not even a legitmate argument, when it comes to balance of the game.

If you think distance affects cannons that much to make a difference, check your combat log. You will see that beams' damage drops off alot faster with distance than cannons do. Besides, distance don't matter when it comes to an escort being the fastest ship in the game. If you're in a cruiser, you can't outrun an escort, if you tried. He will be all in your "cheese" with ease, until you are destroyed, so the argument about distance is irrelevant because escorts can easily close it.

Escort are they only type of ship that makes all other types irrelevant. They are the fastest, most manuverable, most powerful, and most defended ship type in the game. Not only are their defense rating is off the scale, so half of your weapons actually touch them, but they are allowed to shield tank better than science ships. They Borg console setup with MACO shield makes it possible. The only cruiser that is good at shield tanking is the Odyssey, but you will be stuck with second slowest turn rate, and you won't be able to outrun your attacker, so eventually he will wear you down and destroy you. To add salt to the wound, they created escort carriers. Why does the fastest, most powerful ship need fighters to help it destroy its target or hold them in place so it can catch it? I have a good idea why they came up with them because regular carriers can't escape the Borg's firepower in the STF's like an escort can, so you combine the two types and now you can deal damage to the Borg while its destracted with your fighters.


All this shows is the devs bais for escorts. There is no other reason you can explain this type of imbalance. Nevermind the escort players that will defend their ship to the end by trying to make you feel less of a person, focus on the Devs. They are the reason why the game is imbalaced.

Last edited by alexindcobra; 09-30-2012 at 08:34 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,845
# 63
09-30-2012, 09:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexindcobra View Post
Nevermind the escort players that will defend their ship to the end by trying to make you feel less of a person, focus on the Devs. They are the reason why the game is imbalaced.
lets focus on the devs that don't bother reading these...

I love your plan but regrettably all we can do is dream in that respect
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,845
# 64
09-30-2012, 10:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexindcobra View Post
Cannon arc does nothing but cripple are cruiser that tries to use them because it can't turn on a dime like an escort. Cruisers have to use weapons 90 degrees or higher to compensate for lack in turn rate. If the most powerful weapons are mounted on the quickest turning ship, then firing acs are irrelevant. Thats not even a legitmate argument, when it comes to balance of the game.

If you think distance affects cannons that much to make a difference, check your combat log. You will see that beams' damage drops off alot faster with distance than cannons do. Besides, distance don't matter when it comes to an escort being the fastest ship in the game. If you're in a cruiser, you can't outrun an escort, if you tried. He will be all in your "cheese" with ease, until you are destroyed, so the argument about distance is irrelevant because escorts can easily close it.

Escort are they only type of ship that makes all other types irrelevant. They are the fastest, most manuverable, most powerful, and most defended ship type in the game. Not only are their defense rating is off the scale, so half of your weapons actually touch them, but they are allowed to shield tank better than science ships. They Borg console setup with MACO shield makes it possible. The only cruiser that is good at shield tanking is the Odyssey, but you will be stuck with second slowest turn rate, and you won't be able to outrun your attacker, so eventually he will wear you down and destroy you. To add salt to the wound, they created escort carriers. Why does the fastest, most powerful ship need fighters to help it destroy its target or hold them in place so it can catch it? I have a good idea why they came up with them because regular carriers can't escape the Borg's firepower in the STF's like an escort can, so you combine the two types and now you can deal damage to the Borg while its destracted with your fighters.


All this shows is the devs bais for escorts. There is no other reason you can explain this type of imbalance. Nevermind the escort players that will defend their ship to the end by trying to make you feel less of a person, focus on the Devs. They are the reason why the game is imbalaced.
Beams dont drop in damage until farther out from target and drop less so per km. Cannons drop off at 2km and at almost double the rate per km afterwards.

All your anti escort cruisers suck badly oh woe is the cruiser plater rhetoric is way off target.
Leonard Nimoy, Spock.....

R.I.P
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,317
# 65
09-30-2012, 10:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by adamkafei View Post
lets focus on the devs that don't bother reading these...

I love your plan but regrettably all we can do is dream in that respect
i think they read this, they just reflect on what people claim and compare it with actual statistics and numbers and those numbers do not support all those claims made here.
Fact is that there are some capable cruiser captains around that do not share the general sentiment that cruisers are underpowered and escort drastically overpowered. Sure some cruisers are total crap and need adjustment to be competitive again, but not all together.

escort actually only have about 16% more def...at max speed, compared to cruisers. But it is rather stupid to run around with full speed in an escort, since you will lose a lot of time on your target, which means less overall dmg. A cruiser, in general, broadsides it's target at full speed...which actually will result in a higher def rating compared to the escort. and to be honest, broadsides of capable cruisers are rather devestating as it is.
Go pro or go home

Last edited by baudl; 09-30-2012 at 10:38 AM.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 216
# 66
09-30-2012, 01:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by baudl View Post
@veraticus. even my turrets (mk xii borg) on my cruiser that runs 116 weapon power are at 550 dps unbuffed with only 2 mark XI blue consoles. a beam array on a half decently build cruiser should be atleast above 700dps. Therefore 6 beams should be able to generate atleast 4200dps broadsideing.i guess you use MK XI or X gear for that numbers. Anyway...how many beams are you actually using in that calculation? 5 or 6...if 600 dps is one beam that would make 3600 dps with 6 amd 3000 dps with 5...but never 2800.

those numbers do not seem to be an adequat representation of what actually is on a cruiser or escort.
MKXII 3 DHC+3 turrets all borg reach 5700 dps on my fleet patrol with 124 weapon power. no buffs but 18% bonus accuracy, 3.4% crit chance 56% crit severity.
on the same ship a beam array MKXII borg has about 858dps with the same weapon power (some cruiser can actually reach that without buffs)
lowering that weapon power to 114 (which is a normal value for cruisers that max weapon power) the beam still was at 789 dps. this would mean a cruiser can broadside 6 beams at 4740dps...no buffs. thats nearly 2000 more than would you had and only 1000 less than the escort with 10 more weapon power. guess what, the escort with 114 weapon power only had around 5200dps thats only 400 more than the cruiser.

so, i think your numbers are completely manufactured and do not represent the reality in any way.
although i have to admit that was all with 4 mk xi consoles, but there are cruisers that also have 4 tac consoles.
i took 2 out anyway and was still at 694dps with only 114 weapon power. with 3 it was 741 dps. all numbers still well above yours.
I just ran The Cure on Normal. Here are my numbers.

Raw Damage:
Min: 0
Max: 35,840
AVG: 742
DPS: 3,708 (4,083 peak)

Net Damage:
Min: 0
Max: 10,132
AVG: 461
DPS: 2,403 (2,668 peak)


I run with 123 to weapons.
Have 6 arrays(2MkXII 4MkXI) and 2 dual beam banks.(both MkXI)
+78.6 to phaser power from consoles.
The Assimilated Module.
Power Transfer Rate of 239% or 11.9/sec.

Run with AP:B(Rank I) FAW(Rank I) and BO(RankI) for my Tactical slots.
DEM(RankI) and FP(RankI)
Plus a Lance.

When running DPS numbers you have to account for the power drain too.
Sometimes that number can drop as low as 43 due to things like BO/Lance or from FAW and multiple targets.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 513
# 67
09-30-2012, 01:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexindcobra View Post
Escort are they only type of ship that makes all other types irrelevant. They are the fastest, most manuverable, most powerful, and most defended ship type in the game. Not only are their defense rating is off the scale, so half of your weapons actually touch them, but they are allowed to shield tank better than science ships. They Borg console setup with MACO shield makes it possible. The only cruiser that is good at shield tanking is the Odyssey, but you will be stuck with second slowest turn rate, and you won't be able to outrun your attacker, so eventually he will wear you down and destroy you.
So, other people have pointed out some of the factual inaccuracies in the rest of this post, but I thought this was worth a special mention. See, what you are doing here is asserting that equipment that ANY ship can carry is somehow making escorts BETTER at shield tanking than the alternatives. This makes no sense. At a base level, any cruiser or Science vessel has a higher potential for tanking than an escort. If you equip both ships with the same kind of gear, then the gear should cancel, and the relative tankiness of the ships will remain the same.

I suspect that what is happening behind the scenes is you are comparing escorts with tanking gear (Shield dis. Doffs, MACO shields, Borg set, etc) to ships WITHOUT that gear, which is obviously nonsense. Same thing with the 'Odyssey is the only cruiser good at shield tanking' comment. How is that? Tanking slots are generally understood to be either engineering or sci slots. Cruisers as a whole have the SAME sci consoles and powers that escorts do as a whole, and more Eng slots. If sci powers are what matters, then if escorts are good at shield tanking, cruiser should be at least the same, and if eng powers matter as well, then all cruisers should be BETTER at shield tanking than an escort (and escorts are, in your world, already too good).

If your argument was that the tanking gear in this game is too good, that would be one thing, but that's NOT a problem with escorts, nor is it a reason to (as you keep suggesting) nerf escort damage. If you feel like escorts are able to tank so well that it makes the heals from cruiser obsolete, I disagree, but at least that argument makes some sense - the solution, however, is NOT to reduce escort damage. The solution is to reduce the effectiveness of heals, so that the ships that have more heals have a larger relative advantage.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,845
# 68
09-30-2012, 01:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitemepwe View Post
Beams dont drop in damage until farther out from target and drop less so per km. Cannons drop off at 2km and at almost double the rate per km afterwards.
I hate to say it but in my experience my escorts still out damage cruisers that are sat at 5km while I am at 10km.

My engineers cruiser makes 200 damage per hit at 10km with EPTW and TT in place, my tacticals escort does the same at 10km with no buffs.

My tacticals cruiser (of the exact same build) does at 10km unbuffed what my engineers cruiser does at 10km with EPTW and TT in place

I think it's something about tacticals>engineers
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 232
# 69
09-30-2012, 02:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by veraticus View Post
I just ran The Cure on Normal. Here are my numbers.

Raw Damage:
Min: 0
Max: 35,840
AVG: 742
DPS: 3,708 (4,083 peak)

Net Damage:
Min: 0
Max: 10,132
AVG: 461
DPS: 2,403 (2,668 peak)


I run with 123 to weapons.
Have 6 arrays(2MkXII 4MkXI) and 2 dual beam banks.(both MkXI)
+78.6 to phaser power from consoles.
The Assimilated Module.
Power Transfer Rate of 239% or 11.9/sec.

Run with AP:B(Rank I) FAW(Rank I) and BO(RankI) for my Tactical slots.
DEM(RankI) and FP(RankI)
Plus a Lance.

When running DPS numbers you have to account for the power drain too.
Sometimes that number can drop as low as 43 due to things like BO/Lance or from FAW and multiple targets.
So, you're running 8 beams at 123 power.
That's ... not ideal.
The 8th beam's extra potential is totally neutralized by the extra power drain, you get no extra damage at all (okay, technically: 0.05%).
Even the 7th beam at that low power is pretty useless, and only adds 3.75% extra damage - a torpedo launcher, even if used only once a year, would still be a better choice.

Your main issue though: Y U NO EPtW????
EPtW, even a lowly EPtW1, even at only 6 beams and 123 base power, would be a damage increase of 23.9%. And it'd make 7 beams at least somewhat viable, and 8 at least not totally useless - in fact, with the same setup you have now, the increase in dps would be 31%.

... and you're wondering why cruisers suck?
Because their captains don't know what they're doing!

P.S.: Not to mention that you're using a Dreadnought with beams (L2 DHC/Turret + Aux2Damp!), or that you're using Feedback Pulse in your valuable Sci slots ...... ARGHH

Edit @adamkafel: You're just as bad. Weapon Power to 1xx/100, or you're wasting EPtW - you're making the same stupid mistake.

Cruisers are sucking power like mad, with all their weapons slots, and you really need to set power to max AND run EPtW to buffer all that drain, or your damage will inevitably suck.

Last edited by flekh; 09-30-2012 at 02:25 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,845
# 70
09-30-2012, 02:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrtshead View Post
Tanking slots are generally understood to be either engineering or sci slots. Cruisers as a whole have the SAME sci consoles and powers that escorts do as a whole, and more Eng slots. If sci powers are what matters, then if escorts are good at shield tanking, cruiser should be at least the same, and if eng powers matter as well, then all cruisers should be BETTER at shield tanking than an escort (and escorts are, in your world, already too good).
in all fairness any ship can only hold out for a limited amount of time provided you are able to lay down sufficient damage which, due to the cruisers severely lacking damage potential in casual player builds (such as mine, I want to have fun playing the game not feel like its a chore), gives escorts a tanking advantage as they don't need to hold out for as long .

Allow me to take you back in time to the day before season 6 went live (already been here 3 times before but you haven't read that as evidenced by your comment) I was able to tank almost anything the game could throw at me in my engi/cruiser because I had a nice amount of tank skills and was still pumping out a good 500-800 unbuffed damage per hit with 6 beams and could push that to a maximum of 2.5k per hit so I was a dmage sponge come support ship with some bite to my bark, the day after I was producing half that damage (ish, maxing at 1800 per hit) so I'd lost my bite and had a little hull boost, a couple of weeks later I lost that and had nothing to show for my lost damage (except a lot more deaths on my record).

so while my cruiser may be better at shield tanking, it's overall tank ability is less than that of an escort. Lets all remember that while in real life a tank has a lot of armour it also packs a damn nasty punch... something you lot seem to, conveniently or over-wise, forget.

P.S. For those of you who want to pick fault with everything I say about MY OWN ship performance here is some information you will want about how I got my damage stats

Last edited by adamkafei; 09-30-2012 at 02:17 PM.
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