Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 216
# 81
09-30-2012, 07:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by flekh View Post
Can you turn every Cruiser into a Battle Cruiser that can keep up with Escorts? Of course not.
Can you make every Cruiser push decent dps and be able to kill things? Yes, with the proper build, and knowing how to use it.
Is there a hirachy in Fed Cruisers? You sure bet there is, and it's very much a question of Pay-to-Win: Free T5 Cruisers are worse than a 20$ Cruiser which is worse than a 25$ Cruiser which gets owned by the 50$ brick. The Dreadnough is the only exception to that rule, and pretty much a "bargain".
I've posted a comparison in the Galaxy-joke thread.
Is that working as intended? You bet it is!
Does the same P2W mechanic apply to escorts? ..... oh, such a surprise, it does.

But the general "Cruisers suck"-whining is really bull. Even a lowly Star Cruiser deals enough damage for all current content and can solo at acceptable killing speeds. What sucks are many captains, especially Cruiser-captains.
Why do Cruiser-captains suck proportionally more often? Because even the most sucky Cruiser can still complete solo-content. A sucky Sci-ship will die too often, and a sucky Escort will die all the time. Cruisers are noob-friendly.
When those noob-Cruisers suddenly have to compare themselves to other players though ... yeah, then it gets ugly, we get threads like this one (and dozens more) - because ... it's really impossible that the captains are the problem! It can't! It mustn't! It has to be ... the ships! The combat mechanics! The Illuminati! *sigh*
Lol, loved the Illuminati comment.

I do still believe that there are imbalances between BOff layouts between various cruisers and their escort counterparts. And access to powers.

As for the P2W comment. Its nice to see someone else agrees that the P2W does indeed exist. I really wish they would ditch that system, balance all ships and implement a new income mechanic. Charging for ships is bull.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,766
# 82
09-30-2012, 08:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by yreodred View Post
100% true.
Escort lobbyist will always want to think to be in disadvantage because they like to see themselves that way. where is the fun if everyone knows they are just destroying big target practices in PvP. But they will never admit that, of course.




I am sorry to say that but, you should at least be honest enough to admit that escorts have far more advantages than crusiers.
If you would, you would try to do PvP in a Slow, boring and toothless Federation Crusier in Ker'rat system, without any friends or any other help. See how it is to be just a target practice of other players, with their ships having almost all advantages on their side. Do that day, after day, after day. Do that for a year and honestly tell me that things are allright as they are.

I just sick of people not wanting to see how things really are and i don't want to discuss that anymore because you guys don want to discuss anything, you just to be right.

You have the devs on your side, what else do you want? The game fits perfectly to your needs, Escorts rule more than any other ship in this Game, why do you even bother?
Do you really expect us to agree with you even if we see the injustice every time we try to PvP?

Sorry, but i don't want to waste my time on things like that anymore.
Ive played extensively in the Bortas, BortasQu, voQ and dabbled in the Orion maurauder for several months in PvP. I had the idea of making a working KDF DpV cruisersupport healer.
Does that count?
I currently run a Raptor to try out the escort of the KDF and recently upgraded to the Somraw. Been playing them for weeks now. So to label me a just an escort player would be untrue.

Ive been in many PvP fights. I claim no mastery of PvP but I can tell yiu I have fought many escorts that folded like paper, some that seemed indetructible, Cruiser that killed effeciently, others that where as hard as anvils and many that folded also like paper.

If you or anyone os having trouble doing pvp in a cruiser then I still feel the error lies in the design being attempted because too many others have achieved what many in this thread have claimed are insurmountle shortcomming of the class.

But to be succint my oringal post was to the other posters statement on the differences in decreasing damage over range between beams and cannons. His infi is wrong unless a change was inacted during a patch that changed the rules.

As to the advantages of thescort class. I have to admit nothing, thier vessel design advantages are well known. As are thier weaknesses, which the really good player compensate for in play

I honestly think the cruiser complaint about not being deadlier is mainly ego driven and also driven by inability to accept the psuedo-role desiged by the Devs.
Richard Hamilton (1975-2014)
goodbye good friend. We will see you in the DMZ in the sky oneday, save a shot for us.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,235
# 83
10-01-2012, 04:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrtshead View Post
Also, let me take you on my own journey through time.
Here are the Season 6 patch notes that 'broke' your cruiser. Please point to the note that indicates what changed - I admit I read them pretty casually, but I didn't see anything about reducing damage of beam weapons, or re-balancing tactical consoles, or anything else that would reduce your ships damage output. If I missed something, I'm sure you'll find it for me, unless that's too much of a chore.

Of course, it's entirely reasonable and proper to assert that there must have been some kind of undocumented change that the devs snuck in, either through incompetence or deliberate malice, and that in the intervening months it was un-noticed by anyone but you, or even that it WAS noticed, but the pro-escort PVP crowd quashed any mention of it, and the devs silence any player who mentions it. Or, you know, maybe your experience just doesn't match what other people experience. Either way.
I have read over the season 6 release notes and didn't find any balance changes HOWEVER before you jump in with the old "I told you so" you said yourself that there may have been an undocumented change (I'm not saying for certain there was) which my experience points to. on top of this I have noticed in multiple threads people talking about resistance boosts with season 5 so I went hunting and found a copy of the release notes here (there wasn't one in the forums, something about it being too large) I didn't find anything in there about defence boosts (except for high yield torps).

With regard to the optimised builds which I did experiment with shortly after season 6 and my DPS drop, they just weren't fun nine times out of ten when I needed a shield heal I couldn't have one because it was on CD so I went boom (yes I do use tac team, a lot) and the dual EPtWs messed everything up for me as I tried cycling everything but when I came back to the tray as dictated in the usage guides I found everything was still recovering from a full CD so I went back to my old build that I had tried, tested, modified, optimised, etc and fits my play style perfectly, it would simply be nice if it had a little more kick like it used to
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 103
# 84
10-01-2012, 06:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitemepwe View Post
Ive played extensively in the Bortas, BortasQu, voQ and dabbled in the Orion maurauder for several months in PvP. I had the idea of making a working KDF DpV cruisersupport healer.
Does that count?
I currently run a Raptor to try out the escort of the KDF and recently upgraded to the Somraw. Been playing them for weeks now. So to label me a just an escort player would be untrue.

Ive been in many PvP fights. I claim no mastery of PvP but I can tell yiu I have fought many escorts that folded like paper, some that seemed indetructible, Cruiser that killed effeciently, others that where as hard as anvils and many that folded also like paper.

If you or anyone os having trouble doing pvp in a cruiser then I still feel the error lies in the design being attempted because too many others have achieved what many in this thread have claimed are insurmountle shortcomming of the class.

But to be succint my oringal post was to the other posters statement on the differences in decreasing damage over range between beams and cannons. His infi is wrong unless a change was inacted during a patch that changed the rules.

As to the advantages of thescort class. I have to admit nothing, thier vessel design advantages are well known. As are thier weaknesses, which the really good player compensate for in play

I honestly think the cruiser complaint about not being deadlier is mainly ego driven and also driven by inability to accept the psuedo-role desiged by the Devs.



So you come here and tell us that you have played bortas, bortasqu orion marauder and Voq, Bortas 4 tactical consoles, Bortasqu (bet the tact one) 5 tact consoles, Voq (hope not with siphone drones) so we are talking of lack of damage in cruisers like star, recon, dread, ody, you are talking about cruisers that actually dont need a touch because are DD, so your argument while can be usefull for those that dont know how this kind of ships performs is not valid here because wea are talking about the mayority of cruisers (not carriers) and those you mention are way out of need, and don?t get me wrong i love the Bortas and Bortasqu have both my self, but thats exactly how a cruiser should hit, pretty hard.


And about escorts, having a shield modifier ratio basically the same as cruisers, just follow the rate between science vessels and cruisers and aply the same ratio from cruisers to escorts and you will notice something wrong, and if thats not enough also add them their innate defense to see one of their strenght points.


Then we go to a practice enviroment and lets say 5 escorts performing amazingly in infected, while 5 cruisers in the same spot will have the time always in their necks and can be done, but with great effort and good team play something that otherwhise is not needed.

So to finish, is clear that this game is drifting towards DD class ships and favoring tactical officers in every aspect because even a tac in a science vessel will get most of science powers than a science officer and that is something that jepardizes people interest in other kind of ships, builds, proffesions of the game, and we all know what that means.



PS: 75% of my fleet are tactical officers the rest are mostly engineers and some science officers.
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Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,107
# 85
10-01-2012, 07:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kattarn View Post
So you come here and tell us that you have played bortas, bortasqu orion marauder and Voq, Bortas 4 tactical consoles, Bortasqu (bet the tact one) 5 tact consoles, Voq (hope not with siphone drones) so we are talking of lack of damage in cruisers like star, recon, dread, ody, you are talking about cruisers that actually dont need a touch because are DD, so your argument while can be usefull for those that dont know how this kind of ships performs is not valid here because wea are talking about the mayority of cruisers (not carriers) and those you mention are way out of need, and don?t get me wrong i love the Bortas and Bortasqu have both my self, but thats exactly how a cruiser should hit, pretty hard.


And about escorts, having a shield modifier ratio basically the same as cruisers, just follow the rate between science vessels and cruisers and aply the same ratio from cruisers to escorts and you will notice something wrong, and if thats not enough also add them their innate defense to see one of their strenght points.


Then we go to a practice enviroment and lets say 5 escorts performing amazingly in infected, while 5 cruisers in the same spot will have the time always in their necks and can be done, but with great effort and good team play something that otherwhise is not needed.

So to finish, is clear that this game is drifting towards DD class ships and favoring tactical officers in every aspect because even a tac in a science vessel will get most of science powers than a science officer and that is something that jepardizes people interest in other kind of ships, builds, proffesions of the game, and we all know what that means.



PS: 75% of my fleet are tactical officers the rest are mostly engineers and some science officers.
this would actually be a problem, if you couldn't switch ships as often as you like. There is a ship for each aspect of the game (nearly) those cruisers you list are not made for this specific aspect of the game.
the solution is there...pick up a cruiser that has more dps potential or pick up an escort.
and thats intentional...you need to buy different ships at endgame level, meaning cryptic can make business.
If you feel the need to do pure dmg encounter with your tank ship, thats completely your decission. Nobody foces you to be in that one ship for all missions.
and cryptic is actually developing towards other game aspects that favour other ships. fleet base blockade is one for instance. Either you tank heal the transporter, or CC the grp. to destroy them before they destroy the transport is the hardest solution to this fleet action.

the idea to have one captain that uses one ship, is not the intention of the developers. For dmg encounters pick an escort...if you need CC or support pick a cruiser or sci vessel.
and if it is an encounter where you get hit alot, take a tank cruiser. I understand that there aren't so many missions that support a less dmg oriented gameplay...but that doesn't mean cruisers in general need a dmg buff.

If anything is poorly design then it is the encounters. The respawn timer in elite stfs clearly shifted the emphasis of dmg in this mission to a more sturdier setup or cruisers. But everybody cried about it, without the will to understand the reason behind it.
Go pro or go home
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,235
# 86
10-01-2012, 07:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by baudl View Post
If anything is poorly design then it is the encounters. The respawn timer in elite stfs clearly shifted the emphasis of dmg in this mission to a more sturdier setup or cruisers. But everybody cried about it, without the will to understand the reason behind it.
Wanna take an engineer into one of these with a 6 beam Excelsior?

I'd love to do so, in fact it would be fun with a little more kick, but the sad fact is that I'm sat doing my 300 damage per hit and trying to keep escorts alive because they're the only things doing any noticeable damage.. sucks dunnit

Please can my cruiser have a little more kick? (Viable suggestions have been made by people that wouldn't be game breaking EVEN on optimised buids)
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,107
# 87
10-01-2012, 07:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by adamkafei View Post
Wanna take an engineer into one of these with a 6 beam Excelsior?

I'd love to do so, in fact it would be fun with a little more kick, but the sad fact is that I'm sat doing my 300 damage per hit and trying to keep escorts alive because they're the only things doing any noticeable damage.. sucks dunnit

Please can my cruiser have a little more kick? (Viable suggestions have been made by people that wouldn't be game breaking EVEN on optimised buids)
sry, but myself i have a oddy starcruiser with an engi captain, though i use cannons...i really do fine dmg wise and do not experiance any disadvantage you experiance. especially with 2 photon tubes and torp spread i can keep up with escorts that use a less adequat setup for stfs.
And what you call viable, i call unnecessary since those are based on wrong or exagurated assumptions.
It may be, that the galaxy class is over specialized and needs a refit...again, but that is not the case for the majority of cruisers. The excelsior however lost it's appeal due to the introduction of the regent. But that could be fixed with a little turnrate buff.
Go pro or go home

Last edited by baudl; 10-01-2012 at 07:57 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,244
# 88
10-01-2012, 08:06 AM
So it is by design that all of my capt. types have the best performance in the Endgame PvE content (STFs) in an escort and/or DPS focus ship? And thats a good thing?

I disagree completely. You can have different but equal and in a game with a Queue system like this one it is borderline required. This is how I would see it.

Escort
Damage: Burst
Tank: Avoidance
Utility: Damage buffs/debuffs (attack patterns)

Cruiser
Damage: Sustained
Tank: Mitigation
Utility: Survival (heals/debuffs/etc)

Sci
Damage: Rising (longer the fight > the damage)
Tank: Buffer
Utility: CC

That is what the design lends itself too. Not some moronic holy trinity that has no place in a star trek space game, or any space game for that matter.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,235
# 89
10-01-2012, 08:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bareel View Post
Cruiser
Damage: Sustained
Tank: Mitigation
Utility: Survival (heals/debuffs/etc)
I have sustained damage, sustained low damage when not buffed and even EPTW only brings that up to 500 damage per hit. using the same criteria so what are your damage figures?
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,766
# 90
10-01-2012, 08:48 AM
Yes.

Thats the downside of a game designed to kill foes as quickly as possible instead of reliably or creatively as possible.
Escorts are all direct damage attacks. I expect a kill team to do a better job of killing than Engineers or Scientists.
Cruisers have to be more creative and use both direct damage and indirect damage to be as effective as those escorts and frankly the game does not support such intelligent playstyle in PvE.

In PvP I find the Engineer and Scientist toons to be just fine as a part of the team effort. On thier own they may suffer when fighting against an Tactical Toon but that does not display any weakness in thier design just the differences between the classes.
One expects the Tactical to be the best at killing. period.

The perception of the Escort being to easy to make a tank is a false one. It takes particular builds to make a escort tanky, using particular powers and DOffs.
As well the difference in Bonus Defense for movement speed between a Cruiser and a Escort is only 10%.

Most of the PvE perception of the cruiser being subpar lies in players false expectations and bad gameplay design for combat and mission completion.
For PvP, I have no idea what players are thinking as I see Cruiser do very well all the time when run by a competant player.
Richard Hamilton (1975-2014)
goodbye good friend. We will see you in the DMZ in the sky oneday, save a shot for us.

Last edited by bitemepwe; 10-01-2012 at 09:03 AM.
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