Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,553
As of you who read what I post know, I am a huge fan of balance and the restoration of the Cruiser from backseat healer to the heart of the fleet. Now we all know that in current STO, escorts rule the roost, cruisers are stuck in healer spots, and science ships are just looked at with the "wtf are they doing here" attitude (first part to get argued no doubt in responses to this thread).

HOWEVER I must point out that cruisers in the hands of Tactical Captains can be rather nasty. But in all honesty we know that they were designed for us Engineering Captains, and unfortunately in comparison to the Tac Cruisers, ours have far less bite, and tbh seem to be far less useful. Rather embarrassing to have the most magnificent ship in the fleet and have it stuck in the back looking pretty and healing.

So in response to this injustice, MANY good and logical ideas have been proposed to give cruisers back their position of honor as the flagships and hearts of Starfleet, and unfortunately ALL of them have been ignored. That hope was rekindled with the release of the Regent, but just as soon dashed when we realized they gave us a piece of eye candy, and not much more. Another cruiser designed for TACTICAL captains with some seemingly attractive add-ons (that I should now mention are buggy as heck and don't even work half the time) and a torp launcher that can shoot sideways. Whippy doo...

So now getting to the point of this thread. I find myself disappointed that threads keep on appearing asking politely (and sometimes even BEGGING) that cruisers be restored to their positions of grace and honor that they hold so graciously in canon, and having these threads seemingly summarily dismissed by the developers. I mean COME ON!!! They gave the aquarius and escort (everything and it's mother refit) a turn rate boost, something NEITHER SHIP NEEDS BUT CRUISERS HAVE BEEN BEGGING FOR. We don't mind flying whales. We don't mind being slow. But to be stuck with an absurdly LOW damage output with an equally disgusting LOW turn rate? Why? Why did you only give us a shield with no sword? Why have you bound our feet instead of letting us run?

So here I stand before you, just goin bleh. They don't seem to listen even when we ask nicely. They scoff at us when we beg. Look at the Galaxy Joke thread. Look at the Better Turn Rate for Fed Ships thread. BOTH threads contain some very good ideas. BOTH threads have ideas that are not only fair and would add (or should I say RESTORE) some semblance of balance to the game, and yet those threads have been there for two whole patches, and all the devs give us is a turn rate bonus to ESCORTS??? THEY DON'T BLOODY NEED IT. ESCORTS ARE SO POWERFUL THAT THEY ALMOST NEGATE THE NEED FOR ANY OTHER CLASS OF SHIP.

Would it kill you guys to at least throw us a bone? Give us SOMETHING? I mean, the Heavy Beam Array suggested by myself and then modified in thread with some balancing ideas by others like yeodred and angrytarg is a good start. Give us a little bite back. The final stats weren't overpowered, and were designed to give the cruisers a little bit of teeth back and not be encumbered by the horrid turn rate. If not that, then the leadership aura again suggested by myself and then modified in thread by players AGAIN like the above two would also make us at least be considered something good to have around instead of just dead weight.

Now I know that the community moderators read these threads. It's their job. But I have heard rumors that the devs do as well. Rumors mind you, I could just be blowing smoke again, but if you guys do read this, please, say something, ANYTHING so all of us cruiser pilots don't just throw in the towel, esp the engineering ones, who want to be able to do their jobs as tank, and actually cause enough distractions and be enough of a threat that escorts CAN do their jobs, instead of PvP and PvE just turning into a mass of escorts duking it out.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Tired of Wasting EC and Time trying to get Superior Romulan Operative BOffs? Here's a cheap and easy way to get them, with an almost 100% chance of success.
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Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 145
# 2 hmm
09-27-2012, 06:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hereticknight085 View Post
As of you who read what I post know, I am a huge fan of balance and the restoration of the Cruiser from backseat healer to the heart of the fleet. Now we all know that in current STO, escorts rule the roost, cruisers are stuck in healer spots, and science ships are just looked at with the "wtf are they doing here" attitude (first part to get argued no doubt in responses to this thread).

HOWEVER I must point out that cruisers in the hands of Tactical Captains can be rather nasty. But in all honesty we know that they were designed for us Engineering Captains, and unfortunately in comparison to the Tac Cruisers, ours have far less bite, and tbh seem to be far less useful. Rather embarrassing to have the most magnificent ship in the fleet and have it stuck in the back looking pretty and healing.

So in response to this injustice, MANY good and logical ideas have been proposed to give cruisers back their position of honor as the flagships and hearts of Starfleet, and unfortunately ALL of them have been ignored. That hope was rekindled with the release of the Regent, but just as soon dashed when we realized they gave us a piece of eye candy, and not much more. Another cruiser designed for TACTICAL captains with some seemingly attractive add-ons (that I should now mention are buggy as heck and don't even work half the time) and a torp launcher that can shoot sideways. Whippy doo...

So now getting to the point of this thread. I find myself disappointed that threads keep on appearing asking politely (and sometimes even BEGGING) that cruisers be restored to their positions of grace and honor that they hold so graciously in canon, and having these threads seemingly summarily dismissed by the developers. I mean COME ON!!! They gave the aquarius and escort (everything and it's mother refit) a turn rate boost, something NEITHER SHIP NEEDS BUT CRUISERS HAVE BEEN BEGGING FOR. We don't mind flying whales. We don't mind being slow. But to be stuck with an absurdly LOW damage output with an equally disgusting LOW turn rate? Why? Why did you only give us a shield with no sword? Why have you bound our feet instead of letting us run?

So here I stand before you, just goin bleh. They don't seem to listen even when we ask nicely. They scoff at us when we beg. Look at the Galaxy Joke thread. Look at the Better Turn Rate for Fed Ships thread. BOTH threads contain some very good ideas. BOTH threads have ideas that are not only fair and would add (or should I say RESTORE) some semblance of balance to the game, and yet those threads have been there for two whole patches, and all the devs give us is a turn rate bonus to ESCORTS??? THEY DON'T BLOODY NEED IT. ESCORTS ARE SO POWERFUL THAT THEY ALMOST NEGATE THE NEED FOR ANY OTHER CLASS OF SHIP.

Would it kill you guys to at least throw us a bone? Give us SOMETHING? I mean, the Heavy Beam Array suggested by myself and then modified in thread with some balancing ideas by others like yeodred and angrytarg is a good start. Give us a little bite back. The final stats weren't overpowered, and were designed to give the cruisers a little bit of teeth back and not be encumbered by the horrid turn rate. If not that, then the leadership aura again suggested by myself and then modified in thread by players AGAIN like the above two would also make us at least be considered something good to have around instead of just dead weight.

Now I know that the community moderators read these threads. It's their job. But I have heard rumors that the devs do as well. Rumors mind you, I could just be blowing smoke again, but if you guys do read this, please, say something, ANYTHING so all of us cruiser pilots don't just throw in the towel, esp the engineering ones, who want to be able to do their jobs as tank, and actually cause enough distractions and be enough of a threat that escorts CAN do their jobs, instead of PvP and PvE just turning into a mass of escorts duking it out.


your post is quite interesting. Ive always thought it quite silly that the cruisers are not the backbone of the fleet with the other ships types playing supporting rolls, but that is another story. anyways, good post!!!
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,652
# 3
09-27-2012, 07:04 PM
We definitely need a shakeup to the current ship roles, for both factions... a way to make all ships equal, while still distinctive.

For example...

Escort class keep their current weapon power bonuses, but get a negative shield and aulixury debuff... because they ARE the fragile type of ship, with limited engineering and medical facilities. They do great damage, but can't take a hit even worse now.

Cruiser ships get an innate defensive bonus, no matter what their speed or engine power levels. In addition, possibly getting an innate damage bonus to ONLY beams and torpedoes (what they're best at). Their slow turn rates and inertia are what balance this.

Science ships keep their auxilary focus, but also gain a bonus/debuff depending on your build (a little more weapon power when you're offensively built, and a little more shield power when you're defensively built). In addition, Sensor Analysis not only builds up a damage bonus on their foes, but give them a small defense bonus for each round (chance to be lost when target lock switches). Crowd control and healing is what they're still best at though.

But what do you all think? And remember, it's just a suggestion
Was named Trek17, but still an author.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 590
# 4
09-27-2012, 07:10 PM
Actually, I've often argued that the ships in this game are designed wrong, and the reason is that there's only one thing to do with them - fight.

Let's face it, the three types of ships would have three distinct roles in the universe.

Escorts (which should really be called "Warships") are designed to fight, and should be at an advantage in a straight fight. Typical missions would be patrols, raids and defenses. They would be built for short missions.

Science Ships are intended to conduct research and long term studies. They're not MEANT to fight things. Typical missions would be surveys, analysis and exploration. They would be built for short to medium length missions.

Cruisers (which I would have called "Starships") are a multirole vessel. They would be expected to be capable in combat (but not on par with equivalent Escorts) and capable when conducting surveys and exploration (but not on par with Science Ships). Typical missions would be colonization, repair and construction, diplomacy and long range exploration. These ships are meant for long missions, perhaps 5 or more years at a time.


Of course, the real issue is that there is nothing in the game but combat, so all ships are measured against that. There IS no research system in place for Science Ships to excel at, and there is precious little exploration for Cruisers (Starships) to conduct. With no exploration or research, no concern for supply or range, Escorts suffer no disadvantage in non-existent non-combat missions, and as a result dominate the game.

Put another way, Escorts SHOULD be better in battle than the other classes of ships. Now we need the other kinds of missions for the other ships to be better at than the Escorts.
Once, I was simply called Mojo. Now, I'm forced into a new name, but don't be fooled, I'm the original STO Mojo!

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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 176
# 5
09-27-2012, 07:28 PM
While I agree with the sentiment we all know this will just be ignored. A bonus to turn rate for cruisers, a decrease in beam array power drain, a balance pass for sci powers, an increase in cruiser/sci inertia's or other changes could really bring the Fed sci ships and cruisers back around.

Chances are none of these things will happen but some day in the future those that bare Dual heavy cannons will catch a nerf bat to the nuts. That way no one will be happy.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 216
# 6
09-27-2012, 07:48 PM
So long as people continue to play the game, and even more importantly, pay them money for NEW SHIPS IN A SHIP BASED GAME.(can you honestly take a step back and wrap your head around that concept for a minute?)

...Then things will never change and this game will bar any legitimate attempt by future or current companies from making a true STO experience now or in the future due to this bomb.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,553
# 7
09-27-2012, 08:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by razellis View Post
While I agree with the sentiment we all know this will just be ignored. A bonus to turn rate for cruisers, a decrease in beam array power drain, a balance pass for sci powers, an increase in cruiser/sci inertia's or other changes could really bring the Fed sci ships and cruisers back around.

Chances are none of these things will happen but some day in the future those that bare Dual heavy cannons will catch a nerf bat to the nuts. That way no one will be happy.
Yeah... I know that my post will be ignored, even though I did put lots of time, effort and thought into it (despite the fact it seems mostly like raging). But tbh, what else can we do? I am hoping that a dev will read this thread and actually consider all the great ideas that came out in the two other listed threads, and more hoping (and being selfish in the process) that my two ideas will at least appear (even though I know that it's pretty much an impossibility), since I see both of those ideas (for refresher HBA and Flagship Aura Buff) as being good for cruisers and engi pilots in general, since if we have those, our engi cruisers will no longer just be healers and walls. Now we will have swords to go with our shields.

Quote:
Originally Posted by veraticus View Post
So long as people continue to play the game, and even more importantly, pay them money for NEW SHIPS IN A SHIP BASED GAME.(can you honestly take a step back and wrap your head around that concept for a minute?)

...Then things will never change and this game will bar any legitimate attempt by future or current companies from making a true STO experience now or in the future due to this bomb.
So basically you are saying that because new ships keep on coming out that they will never balance the current ships? As right as you may be, why did you add in the part about stepping back and wrapping my head around the fact that it's a ship based game? I already know that. I see no point in you adding it on since everything in my original post was about the SHIPS. Please read more carefully, even though I understand it's easy to get lost in the wall of text effect I sometimes have with my long posts.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Tired of Wasting EC and Time trying to get Superior Romulan Operative BOffs? Here's a cheap and easy way to get them, with an almost 100% chance of success.
Why the Devs can't make PvE content harder.

Last edited by hereticknight085; 09-27-2012 at 08:07 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,787
# 8
09-27-2012, 08:30 PM
As the user of a Fleet Tactical Escort Retrofit (the introduction of this and the Jem'hadar attack ship upgrade just kicked the bucket on balance), let me offer my view.

I battled my friend's new lobi store temporal ship today (I forgot the class of ship... the fed one), and what I saw was appalling in terms of balance. I was utterly dominating. I tanked her ship, a photonic fleet, and her two past/future ally ships. My ship, the smallest of them all, held up against them. A dual beam bank overload to the past ship finished up the battle. It was just a joke. I was overwhelmingly superpowered.

Cruisers can sit there, heal, draw aggro, but in the end are just useless for damage. Pitted against a cruiser, my Defiant could probably hold its own against it, and simply follow behind the whale, cannons blazing. It's just a joke, with five tactical consoles, the best turn rate, and a subspace jump my ship is nearly unstoppable. Where are the Deferi and their balance when you need them?

Science ships. Need I say more? Next to useless.

At this point in time, if you want to even be able to win you've gotta be a tactical captain in an escort (which I happen to be). It's just unfair to engineers and poor sciences get thrown the moldiest cookie of all. For the sake of balance... fix this!

Did I mention that in Kerrat today I tanked two or three Fed cruisers in my Defiant at once?
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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 216
# 9
09-27-2012, 08:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hereticknight085 View Post
[color="Lime"]
So basically you are saying that because new ships keep on coming out that they will never balance the current ships? As right as you may be, why did you add in the part about stepping back and wrapping my head around the fact that it's a ship based game? I already know that. I see no point in you adding it on since everything in my original post was about the SHIPS. Please read more carefully, even though I understand it's easy to get lost in the wall of text effect I sometimes have with my long posts.
No, I'm saying that they will never balance the ships.

You are paying for a new ship to fly around as your primary character or toon.
I don't see them making you pay for a level xx Engineer to play on the ground... why not?

I am saying that so long as players exist who will pay the monthly, or will pay for the new ships, the system will never change. So long as Cryptic/PWE continue to make money off this game, the system will never change.

You are asking for balance in a game where they purposely make the newest ships more powerful than anything available as a part of the game, aka free to some.
When you ask them to balance them out against their counterparts that means that there is no longer a reason aside from purchasing it as a cosmetic ship skin to purchase those new ships. That means fewer sales, that means less money for Cryptic/PWE so they will never balance it.

I'm saying that you are OK with paying for your toon over and over and over and over and over and over again! What other MMO or even game that is actually taken seriously or is trying to actually make a real name for itself in any kind of market does that?!
No paying a subscription fee is not the same thing. These guys are taking your money on the BASIS OF AN IMBALANCED SHIP DESIGN!

The ships are a Pay to Win system. It is a system that is designed to purposely separate you and your money on the base human want to be better than someone else, or to have something that someone else does not. To WIN!

They will not change the system so long as people continue to pay them money for a purposely designed pay to win system.

Last edited by veraticus; 09-27-2012 at 08:35 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,787
# 10
09-27-2012, 08:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by veraticus View Post
The ships are a Pay to Win system. It is a system that is designed to purposely separate you and your money on the base human want to be better than someone else, or to have something that someone else does not. To WIN!
Fleet ships. All the dilithium required means the purchase of zen for it. And the fleet ship modules. As I was battling my friend with my Fleet Defiant 'Pay to Win!' screamed through my head. With my ship, I am at a position to see P2W in it's full ugliness. If you want to win... you must pay. And that is exactly what people do, leaving others without the best ships in the dust.
Quote:
Originally Posted by askray View Post
YAY I'M EVOLVED! *drools on his chin*
Quote:
Originally Posted by voporak View Post
Welcome to the STO forums, where the evolutionary clock ticks backwards.
The Forgotten Battle - a new Foundry mission
Check out my STO Youtube channel!
Why are you hovering over my signature? Play my foundry missions! :-)
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