Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,690
# 121
09-30-2012, 12:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by veraticus View Post
I disagree with your statement of the damage from a Cruiser's broadside being similar to a frontal assault from an Escort. But may I have the weapon layout you would use on this particular Vorcha so I can do some comparison between it and an 8 beam Cruiser?
I would suggest he would use 4 DHCs and 4 Turrets of either Mk XII [Borg] or fleet standard
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,545
# 122
09-30-2012, 04:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by quiscustodiet View Post
Kid. You seemed to have answered to me. I didn't read. I refuse to read so long as you do not ditch the green/orange/purple fonts and stop abusing the caps lock key.

Whatever your beef with my eyes (and those of everyone unlucky enough to be confronted by your immature font) and that innocent key, it is undeserved.
Neither of them has ever done anything to harm you.
Heh... I like this guy, but alas he contributes not to this thread.
Well all I can say is that if you don't bother to read the first post in a thread, why bother to respond at all? Do us all the courtesy of not wasting our time with a response that is not constructive in any way shape or form.



Now that that's dealt with, baudl is right (god I can't believe I am saying this). I recently did some tests in elite stfs and in 1v1s with a few of my friends, and I found that after exactly 60 seconds of blasting a target's head in, my FPE with an engi captain was able to sustain about 8k dps with all buffs and abilities going. I was cycling TT1 and CRFs almost constantly in conjunction with APB1 and 2, and again a consistent 8k dps running full DHCs and turrets.

Now I did the same thing with only weapons firing, NO buffs of any kind. My dps dropped dramatically down to about 3.5k. That's a drop to roughly 40% of my standard dps on my FPE. I did a few more runs (after letting my friend heal, thank god that Oddys have such a high heal rate lol). I found that the primary increasers of damage were CRF and APB. TT helped but the damage increase was negligible.

Now I then grabbed my AC and ran the same test with equivalent weapons, 7 beam arrays. After 60 seconds of pounding, my dps was only around 4200 cycling abilities and buffs. HOWEVER the only tactical abilities I was running were TT1 and APB1, since that's all I had available with limited tac BOff slots.

Again, I then did weapons only. My dps dropped to 3200. So a 25% reduction give or take. I found the interesting part was that the AC using just weapons was hitting only 600 dps less than my FPE doing the same thing. My friend and I had a quick discussion and then ran one more test.

I proceeded to dishonor the USS Naglfar with 7 beam arrays and ran the full buffs test again, but this time cycling BFAW, TT1, and APB1 and 2 (should be noted, only one copy of BFAW, don't have another copy on my tac officer, since it has TS1 instead). This is where it got interesting. After 60 seconds of firing and cycling all the abilities, my FPE was consistently hitting 6k dps, with spikes up to 6500 when I used BFAW.

We then ran the same test with just the 7 beam arrays, and it was IDENTICAL to the AC running just beam arrays. Not really a surprise, but just a confirmation of something we already figured.

So conclusions of test:
Shooters:

Eqipment: Phaser DHCs mk XI Common, Phaser Turrets mk XI Common, Phaser Beam Arrays mk XI Common, NO PHASER RELAYS

USS Naglfar (Fleet Patrol Escort)
4 DHCs + 3 Turrets + Buffs: 8k DPS
4 DHCs + 3 Turrets: 3500
7 BAs + Buffs: 6k, 6500 spikes
7 BAs: 3200

USS Void Guardian (Assault Cruiser)
7 BAs + Buffs: 4200 dps
7 BAs: 3200

Target:

USS Phlegm (Odyssey Tactical Cruiser)
No Consoles, Shields, Deflector, Engines, Weapons. Just a floating hulk essentially XD.

We used Phasers because they were easy and cheap to get, in addition to the fact that their proc wouldn't do anything if the target had no shields. We also decided to do it against straight hull since it would be easiest to track dps and you don't have to take shield heal into acc. We also had him separated saucer to reduce his crew heals, and we also blasted away most of his crew with torpedoes and then healed him with Eng teams to get as static a test as possible.

So Final Conclusion:

Baudl and friends are right, it's BOff slots + tactical consoles. Not the escorts. At least when it comes to damage dealing. But I still say they're too tanky.

But before you start preening yourself, it also comes down to weapons. DHCs and Turrets have a similar dps to Beam Arrays, but have more abilities that enhance them, and/or those abilities are better at enhancing them.

Just some numbers since that's what everyone is always asking for.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Tired of Wasting EC and Time trying to get Superior Romulan Operative BOffs? Here's a cheap and easy way to get them, with an almost 100% chance of success.
Why the Devs can't make PvE content harder.
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 407
# 123
09-30-2012, 04:51 PM
Am I the only one who finds the multicolored posts in this thread way harder to read than the standard white on black?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 216
# 124
09-30-2012, 05:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hereticknight085 View Post

So Final Conclusion:

Baudl and friends are right, it's BOff slots + tactical consoles. Not the escorts. At least when it comes to damage dealing. But I still say they're too tanky.

But before you start preening yourself, it also comes down to weapons. DHCs and Turrets have a similar dps to Beam Arrays, but have more abilities that enhance them, and/or those abilities are better at enhancing them.

Just some numbers since that's what everyone is always asking for.
The number of abilities is the same.
2 for Beams. FAW and BO.
2 Torps. TS and HY.
2 for Cannons. CSF and CRF.

Difference is that they have access to all 3 ranks of the above abilities. The best we can hope for is a rank II of a single ability. They can have rank 2 and 3 of the Cannon abilities on top of Torp abilities.

Where weapons are concerned, Cannons seem to have a much higher shield penetration rate than other energy weapon types. And they have the highest DPS climb between ranks. MkXI -->MkXII
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,545
# 125
09-30-2012, 06:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thepantsparty View Post
Am I the only one who finds the multicolored posts in this thread way harder to read than the standard white on black?
Fine if you insist I shall revert to boring white on black.

Quote:
Originally Posted by veraticus View Post
The number of abilities is the same.
2 for Beams. FAW and BO.
2 Torps. TS and HY.
2 for Cannons. CSF and CRF.

Difference is that they have access to all 3 ranks of the above abilities. The best we can hope for is a rank II of a single ability. They can have rank 2 and 3 of the Cannon abilities on top of Torp abilities.

Where weapons are concerned, Cannons seem to have a much higher shield penetration rate than other energy weapon types. And they have the highest DPS climb between ranks. MkXI -->MkXII
That would be why I added that cannon abilities seem more effective at enhancing them. I know that the abilities are the same. However what I meant is that TT1 enhances cannons far better, since it adds 10 to the base damage, and we all know that cannons have a higher modifier on them, which increases their damage.

I didn't do a test with shields up, which I will probably do soon, but I just wanted to get a baseline to see if some of the comments made were accurate, so I did. But I still proved at least some of the conclusions correct, the ones about BOff abilities making that large of a difference, since you can see that the dps was almost identical without using BOff abilities.

However this simply goes along with what's been said this whole time, escorts can do that much more damage simply because they are designed to be the main damage dealer. But that still doesn't change the fact that cruisers becoming the main damage dealers is NOT what I am asking for.

So in all honesty I have no idea why I ran this test lol...

Also, I ran full cannons on the FPE, no torps.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Tired of Wasting EC and Time trying to get Superior Romulan Operative BOffs? Here's a cheap and easy way to get them, with an almost 100% chance of success.
Why the Devs can't make PvE content harder.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,816
# 126
09-30-2012, 06:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by baudl View Post
the tankiest escort + eng captain, 6 out of 12 boff powers dedicated to healing and resist i suppose, and you wonder why you could tank elite stfs?

try the same thing with a tac captain or a sci captain on a MVAE or a defiant, and you will see that tanking is not the best idea in an escort.


thats simply due to the higher def rating. cruiser can still take more hits...with atleast 10k more HP, and a slight edge on SP.
also concerning the def values...oddy starcruiser (the one i use) has 60% def...fleet defiant 76% def. both at max speed powerlevel at around 46.
the fact that i can't be on target with an escort while going max speed cuts that rating nearly in half. a sacrifice i do not need to make in a broadsiding beam cruiser to stay on target, meaning the cruiser has actually more def than the escort while fireing on targets. you can do hit and run maneuvers, but that cuts escort overall dps in half.

also consider that resistance counts only for hull dmg...aslong as shields are up it is rather unimportant. But it is true that you can get some decent tank abilities rather easy, even on escorts. (RSP, TSS, HE, PH, etc...)

What do you mean by "DPS boost based on ship potential, healing not" i can't understand. if you want more healing you increase aux...therefore losing energy somewhere else.
Try 3 boff powers dedicated to healing/defense not 6. And what on earth is there that is useful to the point of heals in the ensign slot anyway. Oh right tac team got those too ok 5 skills that i honestly couldn't think of anything else to use instead. Maybe an extra sci ability instead of the haz emitter but that's just crazy talk.

Oh and aside from crazy gate torp one shots or a dono torp spread when BoI is down I can and have tanked everything an elite STF can throw at me in a defiant with a tac, and an MVAE with a sci. Its not hard.

Damage potential of abilities based on the ship while healing is not is pretty easy to explain, although it is all very relative to gear and other abilities used so this is an extreme oversimplification.

An escort with DHCs (or cruiser for that matter) will get more raw damage out of CRF than another ship with regular cannons. A ship using FAW will get more raw damage with more beams. A boat using CRF and/or FAW will get more raw damage when using them with AP:O, AP:B (vs hull), and DEM (oh wait that's bugged atm). CRF and the APs even scale with your +dmg tac consoles.

What effects your Epower to shield? Just cap. skill not the ship or shield equipped. Same with BoI doffs, TSS, etc. Although some are effected by AUX power this is true and why we got batteries.

That leads to the following effect
- DPS ship has higher base DPS, and has higher modifiers from boff abilities to damage.
- Tanky ship has similar base Tank, but the same modifiers from boff abilities to tank.
- You can replace tank with healer

So lets just make up some numbers for effect here
DPS Ship: 3k raw DPS, 50k EHP
Tanky Ship: 2k raw DPS, 60k EHP

DPS ship takes more DPS abilities while tanky ship takes more tank abilities but both mix a bit. DPS abilities double damage for tanky ship and triple it for DPS ship. Tank abilities add 40k EHP for DPS ship and tanky ship gains 60k. Now we get

DPS Ship: 9k DPS, 90k EHP
Tanky Ship: 4k DPS, 120k EHP

I use the terms DPS and Tanky because in all honesty the real capability of a ship is decided more by its boff arrangement than the type. This is how things scale for the most part. Now it is true that more resistance makes your shield heal stronger (so EPTS 3 is significantly stronger than EPTS 1) but so does a higher defense and in PvE you only need enough survivability to kill the target so the point is moot.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 189
# 127
09-30-2012, 07:20 PM
so my addition to this thread is this... Because of the reduced viability of the cruiser I refrain from team activity. I want to play a engineer captain in a cruiser, because it was meant to be, since this is not acceptable to the majority of the player base I refuse to engage in team play because i do not wanting to compromise my game style.

At the same time I'm questioned as to why I play MMOs at all since I don't seem seem to be a team player. The answer, which i seldom give out, is that i'm not content to play a cookie cutter build in a manner prescribed by someone else simply because DPS rules. Roles need to be made more distinct, tanks should tank, sci's IMHO should focus on CC and healing and all should be welcomed into a team environment.

Instead Tanks lack DPS, CC has been nerfed to uselessness and nobody cares about anything but DPS.

This seriously needs to be changed, if you want the solo population of STO to have anything to do with the rest of the community.

EDIT: Went back to reread my post after someone later in the thread found it "bewildering". So reading it again, yeah i'm kinna bewildered too. I'm not sure what i was thinking when i wrote this but I won't snip it, i'll take responsibility for the stupid things I sometimes write.

Last edited by claransa; 10-01-2012 at 02:19 PM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,652
# 128
10-01-2012, 12:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by claransa View Post
so my addition to this thread is this... Because of the reduced viability of the cruiser I refrain from team activity. I want to play a engineer captain in a cruiser, because it was meant to be, since this is not acceptable to the majority of the player base I refuse to engage in team play because i do not wanting to compromise my game style.

At the same time I'm questioned as to why I play MMOs at all since I don't seem seem to be a team player. The answer, which i seldom give out, is that i'm not content to play a cookie cutter build in a manner prescribed by someone else simply because DPS rules. Roles need to be made more distinct, tanks should tank, sci's IMHO should focus on CC and healing and all should be welcomed into a team environment.

Instead Tanks lack DPS, CC has been nerfed to uselessness and nobody cares about anything but DPS.

This seriously needs to be changed, if you want the solo population of STO to have anything to do with the rest of the community.
I find it baffling that first you complain about wanting to play your way... and then you want to force more strict roles on players. Did you ask all of them if they wanted to have a more rigid trinity? I know I certainly don't.

It may also surprise some that the so called super escorts are more or less the same build with only some minor variations. A lot is sacrificed for them to do what they do, its called min/maxing and most self styled "serious" or "hardcore" players do it.


So how can players go in with their own unique non maximized builds and expect to do well? It doesn't matter whether you take an escort, cruiser or sci vessel, if its a weak build its not going to do well.

I think that if you look at the successful PvE cruiser builds you'll see a lot of similar build design ideas. Mostly doing everything to maximize DPS while devoting just enough of the build to defenses to survive while tanking. They usually don't even have heals specifically meant for others; which is reasonable in the context of them tanking all the larger enemies.

When you're talking about min/maxing it only makes sense if both things being compared are min/maxed, otherwise there's no point. You can't compare a min/maxed escort to a non-optimized escort or cruiser, it will never make sense. Just last night I had the pleasure of doing all 3 Elite STFs with a truly optimized cruiser and sci vessel in the group... It was unbelievably smooth. The sci vessel did CC, drains, etc (i wish I could expand more on it but Sci Vessels are something I haven't really used yet); while the cruiser held aggro against 2 very aggressive escorts without dying or suffering any mayor inconvenience beyond one disconnect. Its a pity so many of the really good Sci vessel and cruiser captains almost never do pugs anymore, so less experienced players really have no idea what to go for. Instead they all assume that staying at max range forever will work against Tac Cubes. How can they not if they don't see an example to follow and the game teaches them to do exactly that?

As to the DPS being determined more by BOff layout that is indeed the case. Its why I've said before some cruisers are just too tanky oriented. In particular the Starcruiser and Galaxy come to mind (additionally some extra turning would work wonders for the fun factor of cruisers). Conversely, the Free Ody my engi uses, with a Universal Lt Cmr and a Lt.. Tac boff stations does pretty well, on top of an always active EPTW3. In essence I play it like a large stately escort and its worked out very well. Yes, even the free version they handed out is a pretty powerful ship so my engi may have an advantage, but it was the last semi cool free thing I recall Cryptic giving out so you'd better believe i'll use it!

Last edited by skyranger1414; 10-01-2012 at 12:40 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,391
# 129
10-01-2012, 01:02 AM
The problem is with Bridge officer slots not the ship alone as when my Tac is in her assault criuser she only has 2 tac BO slots with 3 weapon slots.
Age StarTrek-Gamers Administrator
USS WARRIOR NCC 1720 Commanding Officer
Star Trek Gamers
Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 363
# 130
10-01-2012, 01:09 AM
Escort nerf is impossible - I can imagine all thos cries about escorts being squishy so it wont happen.

But bringing cruiser up to the escort level when it comes to dagmage is not that much of a problem I think. The main problem are beam arrays. They are already better then cannons in regard of range, but should be even better. And the second is the weapons coverage - better arcs for beams would be great for PvP, but also in PvE cruisers will gain a lot of profit. Als there is a NEED to apply a nerf bat to Tactical Team.

Now, how to do this:

1) Beams should have reverse power/range scale. This means that they should have 100% of damage at 10km and gain damage when target comes close. Not much, but still to make it more dangerous to oponent to come close to the cruiser. And at least they should have 100% damage on all ranges.

2) This is mainly for PvP, but the biggest gripe for a cruiser is escort manoeuvrability. Not only escort has better innate defence, but it is also fast an manoeuvrable enough to stay on the cruiser (often literally sit on him) and avoid 50% of his weapons. This is also unacceptable becasue it makes escort close to imprevious to cruisers fire. Beams should have either 360 deg. arc, or at least high above 300 to minimize the gap and possibility to avoid it's weapons.

3) Tactical Team should have the shield redistribution scalable. It should be just as fast as manual redistribution at TT 1, 25-50% faster then manual at TT 2 and 50-75% better at TT 3. This will remove the plaque of escorts redistributing their shields faster then beam eats them and force those escorts that want to retain their shield tank to use high level tactical BOFF slots to get TT 2 or TT 3. It will also remove the highest level of TT and shield redistribution from most of cruiser and sci-ship as it is, after all tactical skill. And thos ships have their eng and sci powers to compensate and shield-tank in other way.
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:54 AM.