Republic Veteran
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 91
# 41
09-28-2012, 02:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by adamkafei View Post
Ok... so maybe my cruiser is weak (as oppose to cruisers in general) however this is a recent development (season 6) as literally the day before season 6 the exact same build was doing fair damage still understandably out gunned by the escorts but I was dealing with stuff in a good time and the day after season 6 went live my ship did little damage (not at all noticeable) without a single change to my build.

As it stands an engineer flying a 6 beam cruiser can sit and broadside me and I only need 2 abilities to counter this: Rotate shield frequencies and tactical team, with these in place my shields (all 4) regen faster than they are being damaged...

I have said previously that I am a casual player and I don't care for finding the GAMES perfect cruiser build, I simply want the perfect cruiser build for ME (which I had going into season six) so tell me, should I still "L2P"?
In your case I wouldn't say it's a L2P issue really. Just maybe learn what skills, weapons, consoles etc do now as opposed to what your build did prior to season six. Just finding the right build for you that's fun and do what you want it to do. I wouldn't mind going over some stuff with you if you want to send me a PM.
Commanding Officer of Task Force Midnight
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Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,694
# 42
09-28-2012, 02:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by novathelegend View Post
In your case I wouldn't say it's a L2P issue really. Just maybe learn what skills, weapons, consoles etc do now as opposed to what your build did prior to season six. Just finding the right build for you that's fun and do what you want it to do. I wouldn't mind going over some stuff with you if you want to send me a PM.
Well I am perfectly happy to have a chat about how I could potentially improve my build, after-all there are always ways to improve a build it's just a matter of how far one can go before it changes from fun to a chore (for lack of a better word)
Republic Veteran
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 91
# 43
09-28-2012, 02:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by adamkafei View Post
Well I am perfectly happy to have a chat about how I could potentially improve my build, after-all there are always ways to improve a build it's just a matter of how far one can go before it changes from fun to a chore (for lack of a better word)
It might not be a much of a chore as it is just maybe moving some stuff around or changing a few things.
Commanding Officer of Task Force Midnight
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Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,694
# 44
09-28-2012, 02:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by novathelegend View Post
It might not be a much of a chore as it is just maybe moving some stuff around or changing a few things.
Well this may be.

Which begs the question where should I be sending this PM?
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,657
# 45
09-28-2012, 02:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by adamkafei View Post
........this is a recent development (season 6) as literally the day before season 6 the exact same build was doing fair damage ........
That changes things, that sounds almost like a bug. Its not unheard of for specific ships to suddenly have their stats or function changed when a new season or patch is released, unintentionally of course, but it still happens. The latest one I remember was an unintended hull buff to the Excel R I think?
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,694
# 46
09-28-2012, 02:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by skyranger1414 View Post
The latest one I remember was an unintended hull buff to the Excel R I think?
Indeed, I got that one (I miss it now) but I did notice my damage figures were halved when season 6 went live and when the Excel -R buff was 'fixed' I had nothing to show for it
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,553
# 47
09-28-2012, 04:07 PM
Ooook...
WALL OF TEXT ALERT

So far I have heard decent arguments all over this thread. And the arguments have gone ALL over.

So let's cover some things I have seen.
First of all, the usual LEARN TO PLAY NOOB has come up. Well here's a news flash. I DID LEARN TO PLAY THE BLOODY GAME. I spent time talking to and testing things JUST SO I COULD LEARN. So get that elitest crap OUT of my thread.

Secondly we're mostly all in agreement (except for that elitest punk who is saying L2P L2P L2P) that tanking is almost completely unnecessary. Much of the end-game content is based on doing as much damage as fast as possible. And for the record, that rainbow boy who said he could hold aggro against escorts without threat control? News flash, those escorts were probably imbeciles. I know of tac cruisers that have pure AP builds and maxed all purple mk XII equipment, and guess what, my FPE with an ENGI captain and just phasers with only mk XI green relays pulls aggro off of them either halfway through my second salvo, heck sometimes within the first one. Back on topic, my raptor on my klingon side can easily tank the elite tac cubes in ISE and KASE. Granted I avoid most of their damage by staying out of their torp arc, but still, those beams that ship has still hurt. But my raptor can take the hits, heal it all back, all the while dealing consistent HIGH damage to my target. Why are cruisers even there if I can just tank all day in a non fleet raptor and give little to no craps about it?

Thirdly I would like to point out that escorts have too much utility. Someone posted that they have no utility and that is why cruisers are there. Um... what game are you playing? Ever escort/raptor I have flown has had more than enough utility to not even need a cruiser in most situations. That may not be the case in PvP (that is one of the few places that people are actually HAPPY to see my Engi AC), but in PvE? Come on. I say again, all the tier 4 and up escorts and raptors I have flown have enough utility to take on any enemy and still come out in moderately good condition (unless they get one shotted, seemingly the only thing that cruisers are better at, since they can survive the one shot wonder).

And lastly, it seemingly comes down to escorts being overpowered. They aren't heavily overpowered, but I think they might be a tad too powerful in certain areas. I have stated time and time again that I am perfectly happy with them having insanely high damage. They're escorts. It's what they do. I have also stated I have no issue with their speed and maneuverability and their evasion. Again, it comes with the territory. Most DPS classes in almost any MMO are fast, HEAVY hitting, massively bursty hard to hit speed demons. Here's the catch though, that this game didn't get the memo on. Once you hit them, they are left reeling. As I stated earlier, BoP got it down, you actually manage to get one out of position or in a good salvo, it suffers horribly for it's error. The same cannot be said of the Qin, Patrol Escort, or Advanced Escort. You catch them out of position, you get a few precious seconds to punish them for it. Or do you? They just tank it all. Then heal it all back. Then slap your face off and call it a love-tap (which is believable, I have seen what a decloaking APA3 + APO3 + FOM + TF + TT3 + CRF + EPtW can do, and holy crap... that's all I have to say... holy bloody crap... the oddy was not happy lol... and quite dead).

So where does that leave us? Let's recount. Cruisers are actually not that hard to learn. I play mine as a tank, since that's what engis do. We tank. I can live with that. I build high survivability and heavy defense. Granted I try to put some bite into it, but for hte most part, I go for refuses to ever die tank. Which works (usually). BUT what is the point of a tank if they aren't needed. In PvE, cruisers are almost useless. They really are. I find that to be disappointing. And as it has been stated, this game is NOT very PvP heavy which is where cruisers can actually DO THEIR FKIN JOBS. As was stated, every escort needs a cruiser buddy, and vice versa. I am fine with that as well. But if cruisers aren't needed because escorts are almost ludicrously superior in every way, then why even have them in the game but to look pretty?

Let's go over some basic stats. I will compare the tactically oriented Cruiser to the engineering oriented Escort.

Assault Cruiser:
39,000 Base HP
Shield Mod: 1.0
Crew: 800
Base Turn: 7
Impulse Modifier: 0.15
Weapon Layout: 4/4
Console Setup: 3/4/2
4 Device Slots
BOff: Lt Tac, Ensign Tac, Cmdr Engi, LtC Engi, Lt Sci

Patrol Escort:
31,000 Base HP
Shield Mod: 0.9
Crew: 200
Base Turn: 16
Impulse Modifier: 0.20
Weapon Layout: 4/3
Console Setup: 4/3/2
2 Device Slots
BOff: Cmdr Tac, LtC Tac, Lt Engi, Ensign Engi, Lt Sci

So far the only difference is a 10% reduction in shield on the escort, ONE rear weapon, and the tac and engi consoles got swapped, in addition to the Engi and Tac BOff layout. But when you have these two go head to head, the Escort wins every time. It is superior in EVERY way, faster, more turn rate, and the ability to get a constant 7 weapons on the target. If the AC is lucky, it will get maybe 4 at any given time (depending on the skill of both pilots). The PE can also constantly heal (courtesy of the two engi slots) and put out HUGE dps (courtesy of the tac slots) and has good utility (Lt Sci). The AC will not be able to get through it's shields. Ever. Especially if they have batteries etc. The AC on the other hand will be able to heal for about 30 seconds before everything is on CD and then after that, the PE has 5-8 seconds to deal damage. And if you time it right, 5-8 seconds of APA3 + APO3 + FOM will usually result in the target being destroyed. So if this is somehow balanced, please, tell me. I am all ears.

Now before you guys go and call me close minded, look at the facts. I have flown both ships. I have killed and died in both ships. And my escort is undeniably better in almost every respect. HOWEVER if you can provide good logical reasoning as to why I am wrong, as I have stated before, I am open to being proven wrong. And I welcome it.

Forgive the wall of text.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
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Lieutenant
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 80
# 48
09-28-2012, 05:39 PM
Escorts have too much utility & survivability for the amount of damage they can do.

At the minute there is zero to little point in cruiser's for either pve or pvp and science ships are only useful for organized pvp.

Either reduce escort survivability & utility and/or increase npc damage in pve making cruisers useful.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 216
# 49
09-28-2012, 06:03 PM
PvE vs PvP.
^ is the most relevant thing I have seen brought up in this thread as it addresses two very different needs/wants.

I would like to pull from some examples of my own starting early on in the release of the game to now.

I was apart of the pre-release community and was invited into a Fleet before launch.
There were some serious PvP players in that Fleet.
Kathy in particular was a beast at it and pratically demanded duels with everyone or else!... lol. She also was a huge min maxer in every sense of the word.

She flew as a Tac Captain in an Escort, recognizing immediately the advantages it would offer both in PvE and PvP.
In PvE she would clear the entire map before I finished my first group in a T4 Galaxy.
In duels, she would fly circles inside of my saucer section, T4 and 5 ships, and use only her aft weapons on my ship till she would decide I had "learned" something or got bored.

Fast forward to today and the F2P and P2W game that we have now.
I fly in a Galaxy X. All of my skills are geared towards being a damage dealing cruiser, with emphasis on increased power levels.
I run at 313/200 in power levels.
Weapons 123/100
Shields 82/50
Engines 56/50
Auxiliary 52/50

I used to run with my group, prior to leaving the game yet again, often.
I always felt like I carried my own weight, but as the we continued to play and their gear and ships changed... I realized that I was the one slowing them down.

Eventually I was the only one that didn't own an Armitage, an Oddy, the D'Kora, the Dominion ship, or a Tholian ship. Each time a new ship showed up it was like a blow to my belief that I was still pulling my own weight.

The Armitage was capable of such immense damage and pressure that I found myself getting the killing blow! That happens when you are the last to arrive to most fights.

The Bug and the D'Kora, well. Again damage and speed were the keys, and the BO layout differences was immediately apparent.
The Tholian ships provided game changing/altering options.
We figured that if we could get just one more player with a Tholian ship and a brain, we could advance to level 6 in the new Kobayashi Maru fleet scenario.

I was eventually asked to purchase an Armitage or even reroll to a Tac Captain so that I could better help the Fleet as my current ship was just not doing enough to enable the fleet to bring me to more "complicated" scenarios such as the CE. It was also plainly evident that as an Escort let alone an Armitage, my donations if you will to the Fleet would be felt much clearer.

In PvP its quite easy.
Skill matters. Its true. But so does gear. You don't march up to a player of equal skill in sub level or poorly chosen gear and honestly expect to win do you?

In a match between players of equal skill and skill selection, gear becomes the trump card. Whomever holds the better gear, or more of it, wins.

How many consoles can a free ship equip? A ship from the C-store or Fleet Variants?
How much HP does a free ship have? A ship from the C-store or Fleet Variants?

P2W
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 251
# 50
09-28-2012, 06:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by captainluke85 View Post
Cruisers right now suck. Right now you can now tank and dps in any escort which you should not be able to do. That means both federation and klingon variants. Right now there is no point to play a cruiser.

This game will never be fixed, nothing will be balanced and nothing will change until the game goes to a decent company. Until then expect things to never change.

They made this game and slapped on the name Star Trek just to make money. The game should be called " Cash Leech Online ".
Fleet Tor'kaht Retrofit. A cruiser that can do what an Escort can.

That is all.
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