Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 107
# 591
10-19-2012, 08:37 AM
The realisation I have about some of the comments raised here recently is that STO is a bit saturated with cruisers when it comes to battles/fleet actions/STF's, and as the law of probability and proportions goes, we have more underskilled and lacking cruiser builds than other classes in STO. Pilots flying Odyssey rainbow beam boats or cruisers piloted by individuals who have no idea of their ship's capabilities and weaknesses do nothing but give cruisers a bad name. This creates an image that cruisers are poor and defunct vessels generally. While they could use a bit of bump in power generally speaking, a well skilled captain with a good build and excellent weapons can hang with the best of them.

It pains me to see some people state things like a "Gal-X" is a vanity ship and the like, it's just ignorance. Without succuming to too many generalisations I often find these comments to be made by tacs in escorts, most of which tend to die rather quickly.

All I will say is that my own Gal-X flown as an engy is throwing out 1500k-2000k dmg per hit on unshielded targets and can rip through shields rather nicely. There's a great feeling when you take off 30,000k with a spinal lance hit too. This really isn't too far behind most tacs dps in game. All said and done I can solo the cubes in STF and survive 95% of the time when engaged with a tactical cube in elite infected without breaking a sweat.

Know your ship, tweak it, improve it, be open to suggestions and read about abilities. More importantly have fun doing these.

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Last edited by ozy83; 10-19-2012 at 09:00 AM.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 135
# 592
10-19-2012, 09:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ozy83 View Post
The realisation I have about some of the comments raised here recently is that STO is a bit saturated with cruisers when it comes to battles/fleet actions/STF's, and as the law of probability and proportions goes, we have more underskilled and lacking cruiser builds than other classes in STO. Pilots flying Odyssey rainbow beam boats or cruisers piloted by individuals who have no idea of their ship's capabilities and weaknesses do nothing but give cruisers a bad name. This creates an image that cruisers are poor and defunct vessels generally. While they could use a bit of bump in power generally speaking, a well skilled captain with a good build and excellent weapons can hang with the best of them.

It pains me to see some people state things like a "Gal-X" is a vanity ship and the like, it's just ignorance. Without succuming to too many generalisations I often find these comments to be made by tacs in escorts, most of which tend to die rather quickly.

All I will say is that my own Gal-X flown as an engy is throwing out 1500k-2000k dmg per hit on unshielded targets and can rip through shields rather nicely. There's a great feeling when you take off 30,000k with a spinal lance hit too. This really isn't too far behind most tacs dps in game. All said and done I can solo the cubes in STF and survive 95% of the time when engaged with a tactical cube in elite infected without breaking a sweat.

Know your ship, tweak it, improve it, be open to suggestions and read about abilities. More importantly have fun doing these.
I do not believe that most of the people here are comparing crusiers with sub-builds to other classes/profs/ships with great builds. Most of the comparison is being made via great builds v great builds on the other sides and then mostly from a PVP standpoint altho PVE is now getting to be purely dependant upon mass DPS as well. I fly a tac in an excel, and have for quite some time and I can go into the 20 man or a 5 man fleet point action and keep up there also. PVE is basicly easy mode compared to PVP gameplay and if your build is even "decent" in PVP it will certainly excel in PVE.

I've flew a cruis since closed beta, mostly with a tac in it. And I've seen nothing in the way of development by Cryptic except for crusier, tanking/healing/Sci powers NERFs while the P2W factory at Cyptic has been put into overdrive, mostly for DPS due to the fact that DPS sells and then 99% from lockboxes. And DPS means escorts in STO.

If you actualy believe your crusier is "the cat's meow", Q up against a good pre-made and see if you can actualy hold to that conslusion. Or you could Q up in your GalX with an eng pilot in an STF with 4 others just like you, or get into a 20 man that's heavy on eng/cruis and see how you fare. You have basicly 2 chances, slim and none, as STFs are on a timer (DPS required) and the 20 man you have to "kill" the ships doing the damage before they "kill" what your trying to save (again DPS required). Just living thru the encounter is not getting optionals or fleet points.

The absolute best PUGs I've played, in STFs or otherwise, is a 5 man escort group. Almost guaranteed optional, even if some1 blows a transformer early even, and with 4 eng console escorts that can "tank" basicly better than my excel (it doesn't need the power console) and throws almost twice the DPS with the "miss" NERF to beams, and ev1 lives thru it just as well.

Played a 5 escort PUG last night in fact with my Sci in a escort carrier where 1 guy started apoligising fast that he blew a transformer early and the rest of us went to work throwing mass DPS and still got the optional as a matter of fact. Could not have done that with 3-4 crusiers in the mix.

Last edited by esquire1980; 10-19-2012 at 09:50 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,026
# 593
10-19-2012, 10:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by seekerkorhil View Post
Anyway, as for the first part of this quote the Patrol Escort is no squishier than the new Chimera Destroyer. Sure it has a little less hull but not enough to make a difference in elite PVE.

Any escort that can take 2x EPTS I and 1x Aux2SIF I while still taking HE I and TSS II is not squishy and as most escorts can do that they really need to look into escort survivability on a larger scale.
The Fleet Patrol is so sturdy because it has a Universal Ensign station (as opposed to, say, the Fleet Defiant).

Escorts, in general, can survive so well because of being able to run 2x EPtS1 + 2x TT1.

Quote:
Proposed changes:

Attack Pattern Delta II and III decreased in efficiency. APD I should cap out (fully skilled) at +20 dmg resistance, II at +25 and III at +30.

Attack Pattern Omega I, II and III remove the defence buff. Remove the speed increase. Damage resistance buff scaled back as above to +10, +15 and +20 respectivly. Remove immunity to Disable. Grant immunity to teleport to all ranks. Apply reduce weapon drain effect for duration (25%, 38%, 50% respectively).
It's proposals like this, I reckon, why the devs hardly read the forums: people tend to have a very narrow-minded scope of things, and will go way overboard in their hatred on one particular aspect of the game they don't like (in this case: the Escort allegedly being OP). There's already talk of the devs going to nerf TT. So, now you want to take away a hoard of defenses that benefit everyone, just to get at the Escort? In my native tongue we have a saying: "Don't throw away the child with the bathwater."
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,764
# 594
10-19-2012, 10:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shimmerless View Post
This times a million.

There are straight-up murderous cruisers out there that'd put the majority of pub escorts to shame. I've been killed by said cruisers more times than I'd like to count (I can't win a war of attrition, especially if they're packing heat).

It's not the ship, it's not your bridge officers and it's not your character class. It's you.
I agree and have died to them as well, many times.
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Commander
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 471
# 595
10-19-2012, 01:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by meimeitoo View Post
The Fleet Patrol is so sturdy because it has a Universal Ensign station (as opposed to, say, the Fleet Defiant).

It's proposals like this, I reckon, why the devs hardly read the forums: people tend to have a very narrow-minded scope of things, and will go way overboard in their hatred on one particular aspect of the game they don't like (in this case: the Escort allegedly being OP). There's already talk of the devs going to nerf TT. So, now you want to take away a hoard of defenses that benefit everyone, just to get at the Escort? In my native tongue we have a saying: "Don't throw away the child with the bathwater."
Firstly I wasnt talking bout the fleet patrol escort. Rather the basic T5 version. Think its called the Blockade Escort now. Besides, whats the point of a universal ensign slot when you are going to put a engineer in it 95% of the time? It might as well be an engineering slot. This can be said for the majority of the universal slots in the game.

My changes to the attack pattern skills were not intended to nerf escorts, rather to nerf the defensive power of tactical skills. In this game it is unarguable that DPS is king. This needs to change and the best way to do that is to make a real drawback to going all out dps. Survivability SHOULD suffer if you are an escort. As it is you get to use the basic levels of the core tanking BO skills every science / cruiser ship uses AND you get insane defensive buffs on your core DPS skills. This too needs to change and bar removing all engineering BO slots from escorts you have to remove the defensive parts of "tactical" skills.

As for the changes effecting everyone? Only escorts really use high ranks of the attack patterns. The lower rank changes should not really harm cruisers / science ships with lt commander / commander tac slots.

I'm not interesting in nerfing escorts for the sake of nerfing them. I fly one myself. My goal is the same it has always been with suggestions I make; to improve the game for everyone. In this case that is by improving the distinction between the character classes which will help promote teamwork in groups. (with these changes escorts would be squishier I know and once people realise that teams would heal the escorts in their groups more.

Last edited by seekerkorhil; 10-19-2012 at 01:33 PM.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 135
# 596
10-19-2012, 02:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by seekerkorhil View Post
Firstly I wasnt talking bout the fleet patrol escort. Rather the basic T5 version. Think its called the Blockade Escort now. Besides, whats the point of a universal ensign slot when you are going to put a engineer in it 95% of the time? It might as well be an engineering slot. This can be said for the majority of the universal slots in the game.

My changes to the attack pattern skills were not intended to nerf escorts, rather to nerf the defensive power of tactical skills. In this game it is unarguable that DPS is king. This needs to change and the best way to do that is to make a real drawback to going all out dps. Survivability SHOULD suffer if you are an escort. As it is you get to use the basic levels of the core tanking BO skills every science / cruiser ship uses AND you get insane defensive buffs on your core DPS skills. This too needs to change and bar removing all engineering BO slots from escorts you have to remove the defensive parts of "tactical" skills.

As for the changes effecting everyone? Only escorts really use high ranks of the attack patterns. The lower rank changes should not really harm cruisers / science ships with lt commander / commander tac slots.

I'm not interesting in nerfing escorts for the sake of nerfing them. I fly one myself. My goal is the same it has always been with suggestions I make; to improve the game for everyone. In this case that is by improving the distinction between the character classes which will help promote teamwork in groups. (with these changes escorts would be squishier I know and once people realise that teams would heal the escorts in their groups more.
I'm all for equality with cruisers, however, there's been way TOO many NERFs in the short history of this game now. Another one will do the same thing as all the others. All NERFs do is cause /ragequit, and that's it. In 8 years of SWG (and for awhile it was called NERF WARS) all I ever seen in the way of balance via NERFs was goodbye mails. This game doesn't need or require any more of that. There's plenty of reasoning to not play STO with P2W, lack of content, etc to go out and look for another.

If crusiers are supposed to be the perverbial "tank", then make them that way again. While they have added new weapons, new high DPS ships, a boat-load of P2W massive DPS consoles, etc, tanking and sci powers have been hit with the NERF bat. In order for an eng in a crusier to do it's job, throwing low constant DPS, a bit of crowd control, and "tank" they have to "live". It's a requirement. IMHO, that's what's needed here, an ADD to crusiers (maybe in hull resists et al) to keep up with the DPS. Not taking away something from another class.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,026
# 597
10-19-2012, 02:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by seekerkorhil View Post
Firstly I wasnt talking bout the fleet patrol escort. Rather the basic T5 version.
My bad; misread.

Quote:
Besides, whats the point of a universal ensign slot when you are going to put a engineer in it 95% of the time? It might as well be an engineering slot. This can be said for the majority of the universal slots in the game.
The point of having a universal ensign slot, on the Fleet Patrol Escort, is that it is NOT a fixed tact slot, like on the Fleet Defiant (thus giving it a rather useless third tact ensign slot). But yeah, you'll almost always want that universal ensign slot for EPtS1.

Quote:
My changes to the attack pattern skills were not intended to nerf escorts, rather to nerf the defensive power of tactical skills. In this game it is unarguable that DPS is king. This needs to change and the best way to do that is to make a real drawback to going all out dps. Survivability SHOULD suffer if you are an escort. As it is you get to use the basic levels of the core tanking BO skills every science / cruiser ship uses AND you get insane defensive buffs on your core DPS skills. This too needs to change and bar removing all engineering BO slots from escorts you have to remove the defensive parts of "tactical" skills.
From removing shield distribution from TT to removing all defensive abilities from attack patterns, I think it's getting a little too much. That way, everyone will greatly suffer from the nerf, except engineers in their huge-hull cruisers. Good within the confines of this thread, of course, LOL; but probably not so good for the game.

Besides, I still believe the true problem with Escorts -- or the game at large, rather -- is not that they can defend themselves, per se, but that every ship, from very small to very big, can use the same weaponry, with the same DPS, and the same accuracy. I tend to bring it up often, but in EVE they solved this much more elegantly: big vessels, like battleships, can dish out tons of DPS, with bigger weapons, but they are less accurate against smaller targets. And, vice versa, small ships, like frigates, use smaller weapons, thus doing less DSP, but are highly accurate against smaller things. Because STO is basically a dummied-down version of EVE, we're de facto now seeing the adverse affects of having Escorts being able to fit the same weapons as cruisers, as 'smaller' no longer matters. To picture it: a human carrying a bazooka is fine; a mosquite packing a same-sized one is ludicrously disproportionate.

Something needs to change, though; I think pretty much everyone agrees on that. :)
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 48
# 598
10-19-2012, 03:01 PM
I posted a decent proposal on changing balance. I think it fixes everything. If you don't think so then join the discussion.

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Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,553
# 599
10-19-2012, 08:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by meimeitoo View Post
Besides, I still believe the true problem with Escorts -- or the game at large, rather -- is not that they can defend themselves, per se, but that every ship, from very small to very big, can use the same weaponry, with the same DPS, and the same accuracy. I tend to bring it up often, but in EVE they solved this much more elegantly: big vessels, like battleships, can dish out tons of DPS, with bigger weapons, but they are less accurate against smaller targets. And, vice versa, small ships, like frigates, use smaller weapons, thus doing less DSP, but are highly accurate against smaller things. Because STO is basically a dummied-down version of EVE, we're de facto now seeing the adverse affects of having Escorts being able to fit the same weapons as cruisers, as 'smaller' no longer matters. To picture it: a human carrying a bazooka is fine; a mosquite packing a same-sized one is ludicrously disproportionate.

Something needs to change, though; I think pretty much everyone agrees on that.
^ This. So. Bloody. True.
This is actually one thing that BSGO has over this game. The weapon sizes. Take for example, the Strikes (fighters) have little machine guns that are really really accurate, but low damage, and low range. The Escorts (mid sized ships) have middle size guns that are medium accuracy, and hit with medium strength, with medium range. Basically the middle of everything. Then you have Lines (ships of the line, big-#$% mofos) that have massive cannons that hit like a fkin freight train, but aren't accurate against much other than other lines and large targets, and have the longest effective and maximum range.

It came up in a few other cruiser threads that weapons could to be altered depending on which class of ship is using them, and have either weapons more class restricted (like DCs and DHCs already are, but this time move that restriction on to BAs, DBBs, etc), OR alter the weapons effectiveness depending on which class is using them (example, BAs, famous for huge constant power consumption take a 30% dip in damage on a smaller ship since they are designed to generate huge power bursts, but cannot do it on a constant basis, whereas on a big-@#$ cruiser that can sustain the power needed for the weapon keep said weapon at full power, and cannons, with their smaller constant power requirements stay at 100%, but on bigger ships because of the need for more spike power generation (CRF), take a 30% dip because the larger ships can maintain larger amounts of power for longer, but can't spike their energy as a result, or SOMETHING along those lines).

And if you do either, you can then alter the damage output of the weapons to make it a little more fair/balanced. However that would involve a huge overhaul of the system, which means that at MINIMUM the servers would be down for days. Minimum. Possibly weeks depending. And then the uproar would come because people would have to change. And we all know that everyone hates change. Well, not everyone. But it would have a huge impact on gameplay and builds, and stirring up that kind of frenzy might not be in the best interest of the game. But hey, sometimes something big has to be done to get peeps out of the rut no?

There's a saying that I would like to bring to light here.
"If you do what you've always done, you'll get what you've always gotten. If you want something to change however, you have to do something different."

And my add-on: "And different may not mean better or easier, but at least something will change."
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
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Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,694
# 600
10-20-2012, 12:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hereticknight085 View Post

And my add-on: "And different may not mean better or easier, but at least something will change."
As you yourself say, change is not necessarily better.... But! who here really trusts Cryptic to go poking into the game's best and arguably most popular aspect? Do you really think there is even a 50/50 chance that Cryptic will create a better space combat game than what they have now? They somehow manage to include old bugs into new patch releases that were already fixed! I'd rather they stayed away from the best aspect of the game until they can at least figure out that the gindfest that was S6 and S7 is shaping up to be are not the best way of enticing me to open my wallet.
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