Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 135
# 611
10-21-2012, 05:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by baudl View Post
yeah it is really shamefull that skill change tokens cost that much, in a system that isn't really easy to figure out. I believe a 100 z-points would be more apropriate for that kind of skillsystem. Or it should be included to each ship you buy...since you probably need to change your skills according to your ship anyway.

i can't really agree on your argument that for tanking you need less skill as a player. For current PVE content that is true if you have the right build. But that is certainly not true anymore for PVP. And if you manage to survive in PVP with 5 heal skills, you can survive PVE with 3 or less.
So, does it take less skill to tank PVE?...sure, but that doesn't make you a good tank. A good tank can tank PVE bosses and still keep up with other cruiser that are more damage oriented, because the player skill allows to be more than just a punching ball.
PVE is another animal, entirely. I can "tank" tac cubes with a tac is an excel. That, however does not mean that the excel can "tank" in PVP. Why? That's probably 90% due to P2W DPS adds via the Cstore, lobi store, and lockboxes.

Way back, "before the dark times", before the skill box revamps, that same excel could "tank" even in PVP gameplay. But that was with the "hardened shield" build that included consoles that aren't even in the game anylonger (1 of the largest NERFs to tanking right there). Also, hull resists seemed to work differenty as well (back then).

And, it really takes no player "skill" to go out and buy a G board and macro EptS 1 and 2 (or 1 and 3 for that matter), along with TS, and SIF3. It's all dependant upon "buffs" now, isn't it? I run all of that and I fully admit that there is NO "skill" involved as I push 3 buttons and the board does the rest. I guess I paid a good bit for that board and mouse so does that also qualify as P2W? Probably.

You know, SWG did that as well with the last version of the NGE (after C6CD). If you played for a long, long, time then you had all the little buff items that no1 could get anylonger (that were taken out of the game via all the CHANGES/NERFs just like STO is doing now). My jedi had all of those too, and when fully buffed could run 7 full rows+ of nothing but buffs. Basicly god-mode for a couple of minutes. While STO has not added all these little buff items, yet, (as they just added a few more with the fleet buffs) the dependency is still pretty much the same if even some assemblence of balance requires the usage. The only main difference is SWG allowed macros to be made in game so I had 1 key that turned them all on, and several that just used a few for certain circumstances.

Last edited by esquire1980; 10-21-2012 at 05:47 PM.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,769
# 612
10-21-2012, 06:30 PM
Knowing how to tank is something that is very important in PvP. It prolongs survival but in itself is a short lived thing. Husank is right in that there is no tanking in PvP because eventually oncoming damage from focus fire will defeat any tank.
There is resist management and damage mitigation to survive long enough to perform your builds design though.
Its skill I knew little use of until BRJ showed me about it way back when.
I have tried to keep up, though Im sure there is much I do not know.
Richard Hamilton (1975-2014)
goodbye good friend. We will see you in the DMZ in the sky oneday, save a shot for us.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 5,065
# 613
10-21-2012, 09:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by baudl View Post
i can't really agree on your argument that for tanking you need less skill as a player. For current PVE content that is true if you have the right build. But that is certainly not true anymore for PVP. And if you manage to survive in PVP with 5 heal skills, you can survive PVE with 3 or less.
So, does it take less skill to tank PVE?...sure, but that doesn't make you a good tank. A good tank can tank PVE bosses and still keep up with other cruiser that are more damage oriented, because the player skill allows to be more than just a punching ball.
Naturally you can't have, say, only 2 points in tanking skills. For the rest, I think tanking is *very much so* a player skill. You need reasonably good gear, yes, but not absurdly so. Let's face it, if you're a crap player, that 30% neutronium isn't going to keep you alive over that 28.8%, sorry.

The more ''clever' tanking comes from a combination of boff and doff powers, and even extra doffs to cycle those powers indefinitely, or add to it. Good doffs are half your setup, really. And then I'm not even talking about debuffing (which, after a fashion, is a form of tanking too).
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 750
# 614
10-22-2012, 07:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitemepwe View Post
There is resist management and damage mitigation to survive long enough to perform your builds design though.
That's the problem with some cruisers: resist management and damage mitigation is their build's design. Poor poor Galaxy class gets shafted in that department every time.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,769
# 615
10-22-2012, 08:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fulleatherjacket View Post
That's the problem with some cruisers: resist management and damage mitigation is their build's design. Poor poor Galaxy class gets shafted in that department every time.
With a Commander and LTC Engineer BOffs- how?
The Cruiser should have the best resist stacking capability and damage mitigation possible. Especially when you throw in the LT science BOffs on top of it all.
Not to mention, sets, DOffs and the consoles in game.
Richard Hamilton (1975-2014)
goodbye good friend. We will see you in the DMZ in the sky oneday, save a shot for us.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 135
# 616
10-22-2012, 10:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitemepwe View Post
With a Commander and LTC Engineer BOffs- how?
The Cruiser should have the best resist stacking capability and damage mitigation possible. Especially when you throw in the LT science BOffs on top of it all.
Not to mention, sets, DOffs and the consoles in game.
And that's the problem right there in a nutshell. Crusiers do not have the one-up on mitigation anylonger due to P2W escorts added for the "quick sale". When you have the bug and the fleet patrol escort haveing the exact same amount of eng slots AND they do not need or require a power transfer console to maintain their DPS, the end result is you have escorts that can pure "tank" better than the supposed "tanks". After all, there is ONLY 1 cruis that has the 5 eng console layout, (1), and to be honest I refer to that as P2L (pay-to-live). And that 1 curis makes you pay for that additional console with a slowness and turn rate of basicly, nothing. It's basicly good for nothing except making a "heal-ship" out of it in the comparables.

A lot of people here are confusing "tanking" and "healing" in this and many threads in STO. These have mostly been seperate profs in all MMOs except for STO in my experience. So, I regard tanking as the abilty to do nothing except "soak up damage" (damage mitigation) while healing is for replacing hitpoints that were taken out via damage. In this NERFed version of STO, pure damage mitigation is severly lacking now. While healing may indeed be an add for "tanks", healing, by itself, does not make up the difference in DPS thrown, expecialy for the low DPS tank. In this STO balance version, why fly a cruis when you can fly an escort, run 4 DHCs, throw massive DPS, turn like a fighter, run 5 tac consoles along with it, and basicly do everything "better" with the 1 execption of "healing". And, if you use that "player skill" portion to the right extent with the "get the flock outta dodge buttons" that escorts can run so much of, a good escort doesn't need nor require healing. When you do all the comparables, I have no idea why I still have a tac in an excel, to be honest. Probably nastalga, love of the IP, and not much more.

And really, the P2W designs are futher delegating crusiers to the round files. The new 1000 day "destroyer" with all the possibilitys that it holds with it's eng Boff slots for even now healing turns cruisers basicly obsolete.

Last edited by esquire1980; 10-22-2012 at 10:56 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,351
# 617
10-22-2012, 11:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by esquire1980 View Post
PVE is another animal, entirely. I can "tank" tac cubes with a tac is an excel. That, however does not mean that the excel can "tank" in PVP. Why? That's probably 90% due to P2W DPS adds via the Cstore, lobi store, and lockboxes.

Way back, "before the dark times", before the skill box revamps, that same excel could "tank" even in PVP gameplay. But that was with the "hardened shield" build that included consoles that aren't even in the game anylonger (1 of the largest NERFs to tanking right there). Also, hull resists seemed to work differenty as well (back then).

And, it really takes no player "skill" to go out and buy a G board and macro EptS 1 and 2 (or 1 and 3 for that matter), along with TS, and SIF3. It's all dependant upon "buffs" now, isn't it? I run all of that and I fully admit that there is NO "skill" involved as I push 3 buttons and the board does the rest. I guess I paid a good bit for that board and mouse so does that also qualify as P2W? Probably.

You know, SWG did that as well with the last version of the NGE (after C6CD). If you played for a long, long, time then you had all the little buff items that no1 could get anylonger (that were taken out of the game via all the CHANGES/NERFs just like STO is doing now). My jedi had all of those too, and when fully buffed could run 7 full rows+ of nothing but buffs. Basicly god-mode for a couple of minutes. While STO has not added all these little buff items, yet, (as they just added a few more with the fleet buffs) the dependency is still pretty much the same if even some assemblence of balance requires the usage. The only main difference is SWG allowed macros to be made in game so I had 1 key that turned them all on, and several that just used a few for certain circumstances.
Ahhhh. The good ole' days. I remember when me and my Excel' were more active in PvP, and gave as good as I got One of these days I will have the top pf the line (fleet) weapons again and will have time to give it a go again.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,750
# 618
10-22-2012, 01:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by esquire1980 View Post
And that's the problem right there in a nutshell. Crusiers do not have the one-up on mitigation anylonger due to P2W escorts added for the "quick sale". When you have the bug and the fleet patrol escort haveing the exact same amount of eng slots AND they do not need or require a power transfer console to maintain their DPS,

Wut?

The Fleet Patrol Escort has at most 3 eng boff power slots. And why would a cruiser waste a console slot on a Power Transfer console? My T4 Assault Cruiser does fine without it, are you not keeping your power ratings up with cycled Emergency Powers? Are you sure you actually know how to fly and build properly? Its nothing to be embarrassed about, its not like the game teaches you at ALL how to actually get something good out of a build .
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 284
# 619
10-22-2012, 10:25 PM
The deadliest escort pilots are probably not running armor in the engineer slots. At the very least, they have RCS loaded in those slots to increase turn rate. More likely its borg console, rule 62, etc etc.

Avoiding damage via high defense is an escorts best defense.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 135
# 620
10-23-2012, 10:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by skyranger1414 View Post
Wut?

The Fleet Patrol Escort has at most 3 eng boff power slots. And why would a cruiser waste a console slot on a Power Transfer console? My T4 Assault Cruiser does fine without it, are you not keeping your power ratings up with cycled Emergency Powers? Are you sure you actually know how to fly and build properly? Its nothing to be embarrassed about, its not like the game teaches you at ALL how to actually get something good out of a build .
You don't PVP much, do you? I'm not all that sure I'm the one here that doesn't understand STO's mechanics. If you actualy get a decent PVP build, you'll pretty much faceroll PVE, even the 20 man.

http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/sh...d.php?t=379591

Here's a thread that will help you a boat-load on cruiser builds. Mav, (the OP), has been around as long as I have. It's a good read and I'm sure you'll get plenty of good ideas.
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