Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,400
# 61
10-05-2012, 06:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fakehilbert View Post
This is Star Trek, not some fantasy MMO. While it makes sense that one can hold aggro against a dumb monster by taunting it so that the dumb monster won't go after the truly dangerous attackers, it makes no sense that one could reliably hold aggro against smart opponents without being a true threat.

Therefore the concept of tank simply should not work in Star Trek, not even in PVE.

Well, to be fair in Star Trek the largest ships were generally also the most dangerous (or at least, extremely dangerous) in terms of weapon power.

DS9 and the Defiant turned a lot of that on it's head but even in Sacrifice of Angels you can see some Galaxy class cruisers absorbing fire and providing cover for the smaller more agile striker ships (like the Defiant) that went after specific targets.



Quote:
Originally Posted by fakehilbert View Post
(Yes, obviously the NPCs in this game are stupid, but in the context of the universe one would expect that the enemies are just as intelligent and cunning as the heroes and not all that easily distracted.)
That depends if you think the NPCs in this game understand things in a thematic sense as they were (loosely, and sometimes inconsistently) portrayed in the TV Shows/Movies - or if you think NPCs have actual metagame knowledge and automatically know that Dual Heavy Cannons are better than Beam Arrays and that FAW is a bad power for focusing fire vs. say Cannon Rapid Fire.

I think, and this is pure opinion, that NPCs and the PvE side of things were designed to be representative and thematic, as opposed to "smart" and recognizing actual mechanics.

Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 797
# 62
10-05-2012, 07:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post
Well, to be fair in Star Trek the largest ships were generally also the most dangerous (or at least, extremely dangerous) in terms of weapon power.




That depends if you think the NPCs in this game understand things in a thematic sense as they were (loosely, and sometimes inconsistently) portrayed in the TV Shows/Movies - or if you think NPCs have actual metagame knowledge and automatically know that Dual Heavy Cannons are better than Beam Arrays and that FAW is a bad power for focusing fire vs. say Cannon Rapid Fire.

I think, and this is pure opinion, that NPCs and the PvE side of things were designed to be representative and thematic, as opposed to "smart" and recognizing actual mechanics.
Too bad the Borg cubes (biggest and baddest) are child's play.

The ai doesn't even have to be that complicated, just even access to tactical team would make a night and day difference. Klingon birds of prey seam to relocate shields their forward arc when shot there (but only there) why can't the ai even simply do that to all facings?

The ai doesn't have to be smart, just not so insanely stupid.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,400
# 63
10-05-2012, 10:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by matteo716maikai View Post
Too bad the Borg cubes (biggest and baddest) are child's play.

The ai doesn't even have to be that complicated, just even access to tactical team would make a night and day difference. Klingon birds of prey seam to relocate shields their forward arc when shot there (but only there) why can't the ai even simply do that to all facings?
I agree completely.

We might be getting our wires crossed, when I referred to NPCs being "smart" I meant specifically with meta-game knowledge knowing that one type of target (Escort, for example) is a higher priority than another type of Target (Cruiser with Threat Control).

You can think of Threat Control as "dumb" and that NPCs are dumb for attacking the player that has it, or you can think of it as a way to represent a threat that just isn't necessarily found in the mechanics. (Example: big ships of the line are choice targets: maybe because they are big and imposing, or because taking them down is a source of pride or is demoralizing to the opposition, or because taking one out is more important to an overall strategy in a greater war vs. the actual tactical level engagement that might be happening, etc. - all of these things can be represented mechanically by threat control)

The point being that Threat Control can be representative of something the NPCs "think" in their worldview, but isn't necessarily true in actual mechanics.

On the other hand if threat was calculated according to several factors that would also make "Cruiser Tanks" less of a "dumb" idea in PvE.

For example, if Threat was based on more than just raw DPS (I believe debuffs and possibly even control effects do affect threat but I don't know for sure or to what measure) but also factored in healing & buffing output, suddenly a consistent pressure DPS cruiser, that is healing both themselves or others using higher, more powerful heals with more powerful buff (say, resistance) effects that now their combination of damage + healing + buffs output would combine to make them a solid threat (in the eyes of NPCs, anyway) without actually needing something such as 'threat control' skill ranks.



Quote:
Originally Posted by matteo716maikai View Post
The ai doesn't have to be smart, just not so insanely stupid.
Again, I agree completely. The NPCs in this game need improvement across the boards.

They need improvements that are not just gimmicks like high powered isometric charges or spamming SNBs (and thankfully Bort is looking into these), or humongous sacks of hitpoints.

They need actual group AI attack strategies, things like coordinated alpha strikes, target priority lists, cross healing and shield distribution.


Last edited by ussultimatum; 10-05-2012 at 11:08 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 797
# 64
10-06-2012, 06:09 AM
looks like charged partical burst is no longer boosted by partical gen's.

nice to not have seen that on any patch notes.
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,000
# 65
10-06-2012, 06:45 AM
It is boosted by flow caps, which makes sense, given that it is shield drain.
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Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 790
# 66
10-06-2012, 07:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sophlogimo View Post
It is boosted by flow caps, which makes sense, given that it is shield drain.
Actually, it makes no sense at all since CPB is an Exotic Particle attack. It always did shield damage, not drain. I think they changed it just so it would fit in to the sci resists.
Quote:
Originally Posted by adjudicatorhawk View Post
We actually really don't like A2B, but it's a bit of a "third rail" situation. When we have the right fix to it, someday, we'll probably possibly maybe make it.
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Jun 2012
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# 67
10-06-2012, 07:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by brandonfl View Post
Actually, it makes no sense at all since CPB is an Exotic Particle attack.
That's only fluff. Game-mechanics-wise, it always belonged to flow caps.

Quote:
It always did shield damage, not drain. I think they changed it just so it would fit in to the sci resists.
Shield damage? That would be modified by tac powers?
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Promote what you love, instead of bashing what you hate.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 797
# 68
10-06-2012, 07:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sophlogimo View Post
That's only fluff. Game-mechanics-wise, it always belonged to flow caps.



Shield damage? That would be modified by tac powers?
no, game wise even it says its "exotic particals" that do the shield damage. and shield damage is different from "damage" or "drains" so it wouldnt be boosted by tacs either.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 790
# 69
10-06-2012, 07:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sophlogimo View Post
That's only fluff. Game-mechanics-wise, it always belonged to flow caps.



Shield damage? That would be modified by tac powers?
Then why did it used to give us Damage Flyovers when it hit shields? At some point they changed it to a single tick shield drain. I believe it occured when the new skill tree went live. I honestly believe it was a mistake, one of many in the sci skill tree, and we all know how much cryptic loves admitting mistakes... "working as intended"
Quote:
Originally Posted by adjudicatorhawk View Post
We actually really don't like A2B, but it's a bit of a "third rail" situation. When we have the right fix to it, someday, we'll probably possibly maybe make it.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,538
# 70
10-06-2012, 11:37 AM
it should be boosted by flow and particle, it might be worth using then. tach beam too. maybe only the damage boosted by flow can be resisted too and is considered drain damage, wile the damage from particle is considered a more conventional shield damage
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