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Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 668
# 11
10-07-2012, 12:04 AM
That would perhaps be a valid point if gear was as important as you seem to think... which it is not.

Also just a small point of contention with your argument.... last I checked it would still cost you around 60 million EC to grab 3 Nuke doffs... or $50-$60 wroth of zen to get 3 random pulls from the lockboxs..... yes they are more common then they where previously. However they are still not a new player with no gear solution to a gear driven game. (which frankly STO is NOT).

I leveled a new tac toon this week... with in 3 days... I went from level zero... to a end game escort with a 3 piece borg set and a mk xii maco shield. I spent aprox 2 mil ec out of my account bank to pick up a set of purple mk xi weapons... and some mk xi blue consoles. Thats it... done complete ready to end game pvp.

Frankly people complaining about gear in this game are so very far off the mark.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,432
# 12
10-07-2012, 01:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by brandonfl View Post
Very well said.

Teamwork is the most OP thing in STO.
You may mean this in a tongue-in-cheek-way, but in fact, it is true in the original sense of the "OP" term. Well-working teams are far superior to PUGs, to the point of the latter being discouraged from PvPing. Solution: Smaller teams to make teamwork less important. And even a 1v1 queue (or game modes that discourage clobbing together).

As to the OP, I agree. While lessening the healing and mitigation in the game might work, too, that is most certainly not going to happen, and actually, it shouldn't: Lots of powers are cool, and the rule of cool demands that we have them in a healthy game. So the "SNB doffs" are needed as another counter-power.
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Promote what you love, instead of bashing what you hate.
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Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 154
# 13
10-07-2012, 02:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sophlogimo View Post
You may mean this in a tongue-in-cheek-way, but in fact, it is true in the original sense of the "OP" term. Well-working teams are far superior to PUGs, to the point of the latter being discouraged from PvPing. Solution: Smaller teams to make teamwork less important. And even a 1v1 queue (or game modes that discourage clobbing together).

As to the OP, I agree. While lessening the healing and mitigation in the game might work, too, that is most certainly not going to happen, and actually, it shouldn't: Lots of powers are cool, and the rule of cool demands that we have them in a healthy game. So the "SNB doffs" are needed as another counter-power.
Discourage from teamwork, even further. What a wonderful idea. How about we also forbid the use of voice com and mod the chat window out of the game? This game is already full of Kirks, why not build it even further around them.

Know what, and this may sound totaly stupid in your mind, but how about we actually encourage teamwork? You know, make those poor pugs work together, make them aware of the funny fact, that there are usually 5 people on a team. We don't need to turn them into premades, but simple things like just paying attention to what happens around someones ego might be a good starting point.

As for the OPs question. I can't understand how someone considers it a good idea to move pvp from a player skill based system to a "whoever brings more proc chances" system. That's what SNB DOffs are, you bring more of them, you'll win. I'm sorry that you think your tac/escort is only viable with the tanking abilities of an engineer and the debuff abilities of a sci captain. We have different captain and ship classes, for me this sounds like a good hint that it is not the intention to allow 1 combination to do everything at once.
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decker999
Join Date: Aug 2010
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 668
# 14
10-07-2012, 02:53 AM
What the game needs is more No Win missions....

They need to take something like the mirror mission idea... something that is a daily with lots of XP points... a training mission... That from levels 1-10 could teach basic team work... and even have text pop ups and perhaps even a couple voice overs to teach the basics... and from 10-20 it could teach how to target team mates with HEALS... ect ect...

Bottom line teach people how to you know work together... instead of thinking of ways to punish people that already do... such a silly mindset. Its a team game... hence people that work together as a team do better... wow what a realization.

The nuke doff is no counter its a game killer period.... Hopefuly when it is limited to 3 buffs tops it will make sense... cause right now it don't... it makes up for poorly designed teams... which is just plain bad game design. It would be like a knight in chess all of a sudden getting to move up an extra square cause it lands a DOFF proc. lol
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,732
# 15
10-07-2012, 03:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by husanakx View Post
That would perhaps be a valid point if gear was as important as you seem to think... which it is not.

Also just a small point of contention with your argument.... last I checked it would still cost you around 60 million EC to grab 3 Nuke doffs... or $50-$60 wroth of zen to get 3 random pulls from the lockboxs..... yes they are more common then they where previously. However they are still not a new player with no gear solution to a gear driven game. (which frankly STO is NOT).

I leveled a new tac toon this week... with in 3 days... I went from level zero... to a end game escort with a 3 piece borg set and a mk xii maco shield. I spent aprox 2 mil ec out of my account bank to pick up a set of purple mk xi weapons... and some mk xi blue consoles. Thats it... done complete ready to end game pvp.

Frankly people complaining about gear in this game are so very far off the mark.
60 million EC, which is why you don't see them NEARLY as often as some other powers-in-use.

I wasn't really making a point on gear/geardoes, as much as on the whole argument. a shorter way to put it, is that the reaction condemning an item as Overpowered and Unbalanced is an inverse correlation to how commonly available, and how often actually SEEN that item is.

That is, the rarer a thing is, the more OP people will tend to agree upon it being.

Last month it was Aceton Assimilators and Siphon drones, this month, it's SNB Doffs getting the attention. Maybe next month it'll be something else. At least with the P2W consoles, they're actually available. It's rather tough for someone who's total days-count on the game at all is less than a year's worth to come up with 20 million EC to buy one DOFF, esp. when the consoles you want it to counter run between 3 and 9 million at the top end.

My actual POINT though, was that in any given ruleset, there will be players that will work out the best way to take advantage of/ruleslawyer an advantage FROM whatever options they are given.

The problem here is, of course, that we don't hear a lot from the people who have/use them-and when we do, they universally seem to think it's overpowered, but won't stop using them. (see the SNB Proliferation Treaty thread).

The simplest solution would, of course, be to remove the ability to 'stack' similar doffs entirely-from ALL the Duty officers, or put a hard limit on how many effects CAN stack. this would push toward a more skill-vs. more gear paradigm...which isn't the direction PWE/Cryptic seem interested in going with the game.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,432
# 16
10-07-2012, 03:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by decker03 View Post
Discourage from teamwork, even further.
Yes, indeed. Most STOers are quite obviously fond of being the hero. There is no I in team, so that doesn't work. (Unless you're a tac in an escort, then of course, you are the hero who gets to blow stuff up, with the others being your support cast. Guess why the latter is so not-popular.)

Quote:
Know what, and this may sound totaly stupid in your mind, but how about we actually encourage teamwork?
Indeed it does not strike me as particularily bright to want to brainwash players into doing something they don't enjoy. Besides, a first-time PvPer as a lot more to learn than teamwork. That is just too much to ask from a person, most of the time. Many people just stop PvPing after a few attempts just because of that.

Quote:
As for the OPs question. I can't understand how someone considers it a good idea to move pvp from a player skill based system to a "whoever brings more proc chances" system. [...]
So you want it to be a "whoever brings more powers" system? It is about bringing more stuff either way.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Promote what you love, instead of bashing what you hate.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...lM_skuv4#t=584

Last edited by sophlogimo; 10-07-2012 at 03:29 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,439
# 17
10-07-2012, 04:52 AM
I like how the OP complains that you have tanks who can absorb anything and escorts that can dish out insane amounts of DPS so lets make an effort to attack this problem from a different angle.

Rather than having the SNB doff, something that has been complained about multiple times (understandably) lets look at the buffs, now there is a consensus among a large group of PvE'ers that Tac captain buffs are overpowered (certainly in relation to the other 2 sets) and you are complaining about superpowered healing, so we have a couple of questions to answer:

1: Why do we have overpowered tac skills?
We have overpowered tac skills for 2 reasons:
Reason 1: The games NPCs have too much health due to damage being too high
Reason 2: Superpowered healing

2: Why do we have superpowered healing?
Reason: Because of damage being too high because of overpowered tac buffs

So the root cause of both the reasons for having the SNB doff is overpowered Tac powers (by logical reasoning)

So, let's lower tac and healing buffs along with NPC health such that your tacs can do more damage than anyone else, arrange healing to counter this, but not to be so superpowered that 1 oddy can fend off 5 escorts without help make healing such that 1 Tac/Escort is balanced against 1 eng/cruiser but add another escort and the eng has a problem. once this is in play neither will be overpowered, then you can de-nerf science such that they remain balanced with the existing balance.

This sorts the buff issue and removes any need for the SNB doff
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 668
# 18
10-07-2012, 04:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sophlogimo View Post
Yes, indeed. Most STOers are quite obviously fond of being the hero. There is no I in team, so that doesn't work. (Unless you're a tac in an escort, then of course, you are the hero who gets to blow stuff up, with the others being your support cast. Guess why the latter is so not-popular.)
This might be hard for you to imagine... but the hero is the guy that keeps that escort rolling. Its the same in every MMO ever made Soph. Everyone jumps up and down about how over powered the DPS class is... of course the best DPS players are nothing and fold hard unless they are on the field with there support cast. Its MMO 101... its not broken and its working as it should. The real hero is the Sci that sets up the kills or the cruiser that allows the DPS guy and the Sci guy some breathing room to do there jobs.

(one thing I find funny... is that type of setup is completely 100% canon. How many times in the series do you see a galaxy class cruiser come rushing in an soak up all the enemy fire so the defiant can scoot by and get its guns on something... ect... it happens all over ds9 and on. The trek verse is pretty much designed as a MMO... there is nothing wrong with playing a support role when you do it right... franky escorts are as much support as the cruisers and sci ships.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by sophlogimo View Post
Indeed it does not strike me as particularily bright to want to brainwash players into doing something they don't enjoy. Besides, a first-time PvPer as a lot more to learn than teamwork. That is just too much to ask from a person, most of the time. Many people just stop PvPing after a few attempts just because of that.
Again MMO 101 Playing to your classes role is always the way to go in these games. I get that there is a RP element here. (this isn't the only MMO with RP value) Yes PvP is about team work... PvP in every single game ever made is about team work... the only acception perhaps is deathmatch FPS games. Even those games all have team modes these days. No PvPing is not easy... however its up to Cryptic to make it accessible... dumbing it down and driving away the people that already like the good dynamic they have is not the way to go. The way to go is to encourage people to pvp... setup a ladder system... why not have things like a 1 hour a day Scramble team event... where no teams can enter the event que and the system could randamly create games... honesty if they rewarded it properly there would even be enough people qued that they could add intersting code that would say NOT create teams with all escorts or all cruises... but prefer to create teams with one cruiser one escort and sci. Yes cryptic needs to teach those new players how to TEAM. This is after all a MMO... the entire point is about playing WITH other people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sophlogimo View Post
So you want it to be a "whoever brings more powers" system? It is about bringing more stuff either way.
It should never be about who has more buffs... it should and is about who uses there buffs properly and at the right times. I will say that in some ways the game has to many buffs... plenty of boff skills could use longer cool downs. Having said that... once you get into the swing of pvp... it is a point counter point system right now... and honesty it works really really well if you have 2 teams of experienced players its hands down the best PvP system in the MMO world right now.... problem has always been Cryptic doesn't seem to get that and do a terrible job of getting new people into there PvP game.

Last edited by husanakx; 10-07-2012 at 04:56 AM.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,432
# 19
10-07-2012, 06:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by husanakx View Post
This might be hard for you to imagine... but the hero is the guy that keeps that escort rolling.
It is totally, absolutely, utterly irrelevant what is "hard for me to imagine". What is relevant is the taste of the majority of people. And that majority quite obviously shares the sentiment I have outlined above.

Accept it or not, the facts stay as they are.

Quote:
Its the same in every MMO ever made Soph.
If the problem is the same everywhere, then maybe the whole notion of a "damage-dealing class" is nonsense in the first place?

It would quite obviously be much smarter to have "damage-dealing" be something that everybody is evenly good at, with secondary jobs like healing, movement hindering, debuffing the enemy and buffing the team in certain ways being what distinguishes the classes. In STO space combat, that would mean to replace all the damage-increasing tac powers with team buffs and scaling down the heals and resistances accordingly so that kills are possible even without the current tac damage increases.

The whole idea of a "damage-dealing class" is begging for conflict in the playerbase. Admit it, we all want to blow up stuff.

Quote:
(one thing I find funny... is that type of setup is completely 100% canon. How many times in the series do you see a galaxy class cruiser come rushing in an soak up all the enemy fire so the defiant can scoot by and get its guns on something... ect...
You don't.

Quote:
it happens all over ds9 and on.
No, it doesn't. Not a single time. The rules of ST, yes, even of battle-filled DS9, are that the hero ship saves the day, regardless of class.

Quote:
It should never be about who has more buffs... it should and is about who uses there buffs properly and at the right times.
Are you saying that the "SNB doffs" effectively proc more often all other doffs? Because that is how it reads. But I don't think they do.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Promote what you love, instead of bashing what you hate.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...lM_skuv4#t=584
Commander
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 270
# 20
10-07-2012, 07:44 AM
/quit PVP... seriously there are other better things I can do with my time... it's in a bad state.

The stacked healing/mitigation is too much, but solo mitigation is too minimal against high damage enemies.

It's ridiculous... so either you pop instantly, or you are unkillable, as I said. The ONLY solution is some kind of buff strip to kill the unkillables, but then solo targets pop even more quickly thanks to this BANDAID solution... THIS is the problem.

In World of WC, it was possible, but not recommended to PVP completely devoid of a healer on the team. In order to prevent targets from healing forever, mechanisms like Mortal Strike were added to the game, which would reduce healing that the target receives by a certain percentage.

This allowed DPSers to get through mitigation and heals placed on the target.

In this example of WoW, there was also buff stripping. This mechanism was deemed completely overpowered when it would remove all of a player's buffs and heals in one button press. Resists were added to each individual buff, and the Purge ability was limited to also removing only two buffs/heals at a time.

I am only using this example to illustrate what the development of a game looks like when actual effort is put in to trying to tackle the, "Unkillable healer/healer's target," in a game. It is 100% true that other games have met and tackled this issue as well.

What balancing has this game had around the issue? SNB removes ALL buffs/heals from a target and puts their abilities on cooldown. Overpowered. Then, since Sci captains are hard to find, a DOFF was added so that others had the ability to finally kill targets with stacking mitigation and heals... Overpowered...

With the amount of money that this development company is making off of us poor fools, I refuse to believe that nothing can be done, or that a team cannot be assigned to this issue... NOT JUST ONE PERSON!!!!

In conclusion, instead of adjusting healing and mitigation rates, or coming up with a more clever way to get around this issue that might be more balanced, whatever that may be, the choice was made to add the very same overpowered mechanism to another area of the game making it very un-compelling for me, imo, to enter PVP.

Last edited by freedumb4eva; 10-07-2012 at 07:54 AM.
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