Commander
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 270
# 51
10-07-2012, 04:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by broken1981 View Post
freedumb4eva

im really not sure what you are on about. healing really isent all that op to need uber doffs. if you cant kill your stacked target maybe take all look at your own buld and what your team is doing. could just be 1 massive combo of p2w consoles. or the sdo. as it was said focus fire used to be the best option. maybe if you tryed to switch to the healer and kill him you would be better off then the 1 escourt that just got all the heals from the healer and possby few from the team. many times im in pvp pug and an escourt could be in trouble and the healer combined with me (escourt) will send out heals as well. if you see the healer send the target all its heals just switch to him. healing is not op. its team work that is op.

what is the problem is that healers dont get aux drain so they pump wep power past 125 for thoes 8 beams. maybe if other classes got system drain like tacts it would blance everything out better.
This notion of teamwork is fine, but that is true for any situation.

You say there is no problem with healing, it's teamwork that is the problem? That is quite strange to say... I don't think it is what you mean, but seems to be what you represented with your post.

Teamwork EQUALS sending out mitigation and healing to targets that are under attack. This FACT makes it REQUIRED to have a buff stripping DOFF assortment and/or Sub Nuc to down any targets in organized PVP. This is not fun for people who are more casual and do not have this ideal set up when entering PVP. This scenario is not conducive to growing a PVP community, or having a semblance of balance in PVP.

Healing is a huge problem in this game, for PVP. The only way to get around it is with SubNuc, or buff stripping DOFFs. Organized teams run two, or more, extends, transfers, emergency power to shields, etc... it all adds up to unkillable targets without the help of buff stripping/SubNuc; therefore making a target switch to a healer irrelevant unless there is a Sub Nuc set up and focus fire spike.

These obvious solutions being offered such as, "Get a better team," or, "Switch targets," are kind of insulting... that is day one stuff.

My point is that nerfing the buff stripping DOFF while not tackling the issue of overpowered heals and mitigation, (even Escorts can throw out heals, as you stated,) is like ripping off a band-aid before a wound is healed.

There should be solutions for other Captains to deal with the stacking of mitigation and heals. It should not be required that a team carry buff stripping DOFFs and/or a Sub Nuc in order to be able to down a target. This would require efforts towards re-balancing the PVP gameplay...

IMO, the reason that the buff stripping DOFF exists in the first place is because of PVP. I don't think that many can argue successfully that the buff stripping DOFF was added for PVE. As we know, in PVP it is rather difficult to kill any target that is being helped by their team with mitigation and healing. The only way to do so is to buff strip the target, (or siphon all of their power, both of which are pretty over-powered, hence the call for nerfs to the buff stripping DOFF and incoming changes to power siphon drones.) AFAIK most people agree that energy drain abilities have gotten a bit out of hand as well, again, this is a balance issue.

Therefore, the REAL problem, in regards to the presence of the buff stripping DOFF, is the ability for virtually any one on a team, regardless of ship-class and Captain role, to send mitigation and heals to friendly targets. Contrarily the ONLY counter to this is from Science Captains, or buff stripping DOFFs... I believe that this is a major problem because it limits the ability for teams comprised of other Captain types, or of more casual players who do not have buff stripping DOFFs, to enter PVP and have a successful, or more importantly fun, experience.

As I said in previous posts: Other games have added solutions for DPS and even Tanks to get around Buffs/Heals. There are solutions but no effort seems to be dedicated towards PVP balance... why?

Instead we get band-aids which provide further detriment to the community, instead of a realization and concentrated effort at figuring out what is making a problem in the first place.

Last edited by freedumb4eva; 10-07-2012 at 04:58 PM.
Commander
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 270
# 52
10-07-2012, 05:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by husanakx View Post
You are right chess isn't the most logical comparison...

However you logic is still wrong... you are right if you are shooting at a target and he gets buffs from the other pieces... WHY ARE YOU STILL SHOOTING AT HIM. I think what you are saying is the knight just blew his cool downs saving the pawn... switch targets to the knight and kill him... I can tell you that the pawn is in no position to help him, and he just threw his own heals saving the pawn....

I don't see the situation of the pawn being untouchable for 15-30 seconds as an issue... I see it as in order to protect him that much an opportunity just opened somewhere else.

Your point is what makes the best premades the best... and other premades bad. Any premade can focus target kill most pugs yes.... most pugs don't have the will or the teamwork to save focus targets... However premades DO. Its at that point that you need to go into the next gear and save buffs... fake targets... rapid switch all over the place... basicly try your hardest to force the other team to burn there buffs saving one guy... and then saving enough of your own offensive buffs so you can rapid switch and take down the real target...

That is what makes STO pvp great... no you don't see that level of play vs pugs.. cause honestly its not needed... lazy focus fire is good enough against pugs... even in a pug if you see someone has an extend on them.... why the heck are you still shooting at them ?
Switching to another target? GEE NEVER THOUGH OF IT.

Day one stuff man, please...

Attack target, target gets buffs, switch target, that target gets buffs, switch target, that target gets buffs, first target buffs off of cool down, rinse, repeat.

"Your point is what makes the best premades the best... and other premades bad. Any premade can focus target kill most pugs yes.... most pugs don't have the will or the teamwork to save focus targets... However premades DO. Its at that point that you need to go into the next gear and save buffs... fake targets... rapid switch all over the place... basicly try your hardest to force the other team to burn there buffs saving one guy... and then saving enough of your own offensive buffs so you can rapid switch and take down the real target... "

...and in the end, it's a buff strip or a sub nuc that will down the target. Any good players, ones that I would not insult by offering day one suggestions, will be able to switch back and forth between, 'fake,' and, 'real,' targets... It is quite easy to even HEAR a buff up for a target switch... Furthermore, most people are continuously running at least one shield mitigation on themselves, protecting them for enough time so that their support can keep them alive... this is day one stuff as well.

I'm not going to continue to respond to obvious suggestions like, "Stop shooting that then." It's almost as if you are saying to me, "Get a pre-made or stfu." This is ironic, because even in pre-mades, and possibly MOSTLY in pre-mades, buff stripping and/or Sub Nuc is required... so this is no solution whatsoever to the problem that I am illustrating.

TBH I would like to see a PVP match where ONLY DPS is used in order to try and down targets, in pre-mades. As in, no Sub Nuc, and no buff stripping DOFF. Since over-powered consoles like Plasmonic Leech and Aceton Assimilators are considered cheese, those are out too... I have even heard of people banning Energy Siphon from organized PVP... Good luck killing something, lemme know how that target switching works out for you. BTW, I don't want to see that, I'd rather take a hammer to my face repeatedly than watch that boring fiasco.

I honestly don't think that STO PVP is great... nor any game's PVP to be great when there is no effort to balance it, in general, other than to fix overwhelming bugs. There are small steps here and there, but it's quite a mess, imo.

Last edited by freedumb4eva; 10-07-2012 at 05:15 PM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 597
# 53
10-07-2012, 05:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by broken1981 View Post
freedumb4eva

im really not sure what you are on about. healing really isent all that op to need uber doffs. if you cant kill your stacked target maybe take all look at your own buld and what your team is doing. could just be 1 massive combo of p2w consoles. or the sdo. as it was said focus fire used to be the best option. maybe if you tryed to switch to the healer and kill him you would be better off then the 1 escourt that just got all the heals from the healer and possby few from the team. many times im in pvp pug and an escourt could be in trouble and the healer combined with me (escourt) will send out heals as well. if you see the healer send the target all its heals just switch to him. healing is not op. its team work that is op.
Quote:
Originally Posted by husanakx View Post
You are right chess isn't the most logical comparison...

However you logic is still wrong... you are right if you are shooting at a target and he gets buffs from the other pieces... WHY ARE YOU STILL SHOOTING AT HIM. I think what you are saying is the knight just blew his cool downs saving the pawn... switch targets to the knight and kill him... I can tell you that the pawn is in no position to help him, and he just threw his own heals saving the pawn....


That is what makes STO pvp great... no you don't see that level of play vs pugs.. cause honestly its not needed... lazy focus fire is good enough against pugs... even in a pug if you see someone has an extend on them.... why the heck are you still shooting at them ?
heh, dident i just get done saying what you just said? why dont this guy understand this?

@freedumb4eva a premade can still lose to pugs........was just 3 of risa in pvp against a full premade full of p2w and we lost 10-15. we won that in my book since we did not use any p2w crap except me using the jump console. yes a target can have extends, aux2sif et tss he. but if hes at 30% gets all of that goes up to 100% why keep shooting at him? go to the healer. heck even have 2 guys go for the healer while 3 shoot at a diff target just to force the healer to burn his own heals on himself. just adapt to whats going on. its like this...i adapt to your team you adapt to mine ect. your always switching targets.

Last edited by broken1981; 10-07-2012 at 05:19 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 668
# 54
10-07-2012, 05:13 PM
Well then there is no help for you and perhaps you are correct sto pvp is not for you. Honesty PvP in any mmo won't be fore you cause STO is not unique. This is the way it works in every MMO.... in general 2-3 classes need to work together to benifit each other... this is day one mmo stuff really.

Yes it may sound insulting but yes you need to switch targets... frankly any team that is firing all 5 on one target anymore is not doing it right... and will chalk up losses against the best teams. YOU have to split your dps these days to force teams to heal more then one target. I don't think thats bad design in anyway... yes a 5 man full of heals on one target can keep him up... I don't find that broken.

If you are cycling your targets properly yes you will find openings... the key is recognizing them when they happen. If you don't know if your targets RSP is up or not you aren't counting buffs properly. This may sound like BS... but on our team at most points in the match we can tell you how long the healer has on there hazards... yes you need to time things... that isn't broken game desgin in my book... its intelligent design... even if Cryptic stumbled into it.
Commander
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 270
# 55
10-07-2012, 05:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by husanakx View Post
Well then there is no help for you and perhaps you are correct sto pvp is not for you. Honesty PvP in any mmo won't be fore you cause STO is not unique. This is the way it works in every MMO.... in general 2-3 classes need to work together to benifit each other... this is day one mmo stuff really.

Yes it may sound insulting but yes you need to switch targets... frankly any team that is firing all 5 on one target anymore is not doing it right... and will chalk up losses against the best teams. YOU have to split your dps these days to force teams to heal more then one target. I don't think thats bad design in anyway... yes a 5 man full of heals on one target can keep him up... I don't find that broken.

If you are cycling your targets properly yes you will find openings... the key is recognizing them when they happen. If you don't know if your targets RSP is up or not you aren't counting buffs properly. This may sound like BS... but on our team at most points in the match we can tell you how long the healer has on there hazards... yes you need to time things... that isn't broken game desgin in my book... its intelligent design... even if Cryptic stumbled into it.
Wow, you still tell me, "Yes, in fact you do need to switch targets..." Derp, thanks again for telling me day one stuff that I learned like four MMOs ago... Take a target by surprise with damage spikes? WHO KNEW!? I can say with certainty that your team utilizes at least Sub Nuc, and possibly buff stripping DOFFS... yanno why I can say that? It's because without those utilities, it is impossible to kill targets with pure damage, and, "Derp target switching, duh!"

I'm done here, I've made my point and let out my opinion. I'm glad that your team is specifically designed to handle STO PVP, whereas I believe that STO PVP should be designed to handle a variety of different teams.

Last edited by freedumb4eva; 10-07-2012 at 05:24 PM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 229
# 56
10-07-2012, 05:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by levi3 View Post
Does it say subnuke in its description of ability? Are they from assignments or packs? I looked under energy weapons purples and did not see any.
The DOffs do not apply the SNB to the target. They are called SNB DOffs because their effect/proc is to strip the buffs of the target. So sort of like SNB. Hence the name.

They were introduced with a 2.5% proc chance. Obviously the same math-challenged individual/team responsible, has not gone back to school yet. There are other doffs with equally high % proc chance as well. How about a 1% chance of cutting your perception by 80%? The 'BFI DOffs' 50%/50% procs.. and more. Things like these make STO feel more like World of Battle-Make than Star Trek.

Let's simplify things. Remove all of those skills. So that all you've got is the nominal shield regen and hull repair rates. Curve the higher damage weapons for balance. Yeah, I can see this happening before the universe dies a heat death.

Or leave things as unbalanced as they are, put in open PvP. I'm sure that one KDF captain can match the other 4? 5? Fed captains? Until all Feds are sailing Defiants or Dreadnoughts.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 597
# 57
10-07-2012, 05:30 PM
ok so et, 15 secs, aux2sif 15 secs, he 45 secs tss 45 secs. not so sure about he and tss but others can correct me. just time your stuff and always switch. nothing else left to say here
Commander
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 270
# 58
10-07-2012, 05:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by broken1981 View Post
ok so et, 15 secs, aux2sif 15 secs, he 45 secs tss 45 secs. not so sure about he and tss but others can correct me. just time your stuff and always switch. nothing else left to say here
Oh, but wait, there's more than one healer on most teams, so your argument goes out the window. Oh, but wait, a target can buff self AND buff others... Oh, but wait, good players who coordinate over VOIP can communicate who is sending which buff to whom so that no buffs/heals are wasted... C'mon... why are people acting like there isn't a problem? Please, keep telling me that I'm just doing it wrong...

While you're timing your attacks, healers are timing their buffs...

Healing/mitigation # of buffs > Damage # of attacks

TSS, EPtS, Aux2SIF, Extends, Tac Team, RSP, BFI, MW, DF, Eng Team (maybe), Sci Team, Polarize Hull, Omega, Delta, EPS, Borg Procs, extend doff, hazard doff, etc etc etc... it is perfectly conceivable that every single good team is utilizing at least one instance of each of these abilities on their ships layouts. (Not individually.)

Things that I can do to buff my damage cannot surmount the never-ending cascade of those abilities being sent to friendly targets... unless someone buff strips or Sub Nucs.

Last edited by freedumb4eva; 10-07-2012 at 05:44 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 668
# 59
10-07-2012, 05:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by freedumb4eva View Post
Wow, you still tell me, "Yes, in fact you do need to switch targets..." Derp, thanks again for telling me day one stuff that I learned like four MMOs ago... Take a target by surprise with damage spikes? WHO KNEW!? I can say with certainty that your team utilizes at least Sub Nuc, and possibly buff stripping DOFFS... yanno why I can say that? It's because without those utilities, it is impossible to kill targets with pure damage, and, "Derp target switching, duh!"

I'm done here, I've made my point and let out my opinion. I'm glad that your team is specifically designed to handle STO PVP, whereas I believe that STO PVP should be designed to handle a variety of different teams.
Well yes our team runs with 1-2 sci... we rarely run 3 but we have.... no we don't have 1 setup... we put together teams loose like... we run with 1-2 healers 1-2 dps... and 1-2 sci debuff and mix and match from there... HOW is that broken at all. The idea of having to have a mix on a team to properly handle healing and offensive duties. Seems perfectly balanced to me.

STO is balanced to work fine with differenty team make ups... having said that yes you need dps heals and debuffs... its the mmo holy trinity... if you have played other mmos you should understand thats how these things work....

Its when games get away from the trinity that things become junk imo.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 668
# 60
10-07-2012, 05:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by freedumb4eva View Post
Oh, but wait, there's more than one healer on most teams, so your argument goes out the window. Oh, but wait, a target can buff self AND buff others... Oh, but wait, good players who coordinate over VOIP can communicate who is sending which buff to whom so that no buffs/heals are wasted... C'mon... why are people acting like there isn't a problem? Please, keep telling me that I'm just doing it wrong...
We act like there isn't a problem... because... drum roll... be believe there isn't one.

Yes a good team will work together with there heals... why against a team like that should you not have to do the same with your offense. You do have to do the same with your offense... not seeing how this is game breaking. It is not hard to get teams to push just a few to many buffs to one target... this opens a hole somewhere else... its not rocket science...

Yes it can make for 40 min matches.. but last time I was in a good 40 min match everyone was happy to be there. lol
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