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Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,796
# 61
10-07-2012, 06:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by freedumb4eva

Teamwork EQUALS sending out mitigation and healing to targets that are under attack. This FACT makes it REQUIRED to have a buff stripping DOFF assortment and/or Sub Nuc to down any targets in organized PVP.
TSI, QEW, Pandas never won any games before the introduction of subnuke doffs, eh?

Just another guy trying to justify his purchase.

Don't you worry, nice cuddly Cryptic will make it all feel warm and fuzzy for you. They won't nerf your toys too much.

Enjoy playing the game with what will be left of the community once everyone is armed with these things.
Commander
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 270
# 62
10-07-2012, 06:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by husanakx View Post
Well yes our team runs with 1-2 sci... we rarely run 3 but we have.... no we don't have 1 setup... we put together teams loose like... we run with 1-2 healers 1-2 dps... and 1-2 sci debuff and mix and match from there... HOW is that broken at all. The idea of having to have a mix on a team to properly handle healing and offensive duties. Seems perfectly balanced to me.

STO is balanced to work fine with differenty team make ups... having said that yes you need dps heals and debuffs... its the mmo holy trinity... if you have played other mmos you should understand thats how these things work....

Its when games get away from the trinity that things become junk imo.
The MMO holy trinity is Healing, DPS, and Tank...

I don't think you play many or any other MMOs... I can tell this with distinction.

You just don't get it, you think that every thing is fine, but it is not... you recognize the problem but refuse to assert that it is any issue... your team runs with Sub Nucs... the only way you can kill a target is with Sub Nuc... that is the problem that I am illustrating. There needs to be other solutions for it but whatever.

Good hunting.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,113
# 63
10-07-2012, 06:48 PM
Day 1 MMO stuff, eh?

Here's some "Day 1 MMO stuff"...

1. Any game with a "holy trinity", typically fighter / healer / offensive magic classes also includes a rock-paper-scissors relationship.
In our case, it seems like escorts are built to be cruiser killers, cruisers pop science ships, and science ships pop escorts. Don't forget the inverse, cruisers shouldn't be able to hit an escort, sciences can barely dent/delay a cruiser, and escorts are supposed to be rendered impotent in the face of a good science.

2. Classes are supposed to be focused on their role. Thusly, a fighter isn't supposed to be able to self-heal at all, and if they do get a heal or two it's supposed to be much weaker than the healer's dedicated heal. Same with offensive maneuvers, a cruiser isn't supposed to put out the levels of damage that even a basic offensive player spits out.

However, STO (with it's high focus on the single-player solo play portions) has created a game full of "jacks of all trades", heal-scorts, DPS cruisers, etc. etc. Nevermind the ability to mix the ship of a fighter with the extra healing of an engie-healer while still maintaining 75+% of the offensive potential... Kirks, as it's colloquially known...

This DOff = encourage Kirking. Need a Sci but can't find one? Slot 2-3 "subnuc" DOffs, every so often you can focus fire on the heal cruiser and, with a string of lucky procs, debuff all his heals almost as effectively as a science would have, even though the pilot might be a tactical in an escort. Hence the calls for the nerfing.
Well, with the upgrade announcement leaving NX and Connie fans in the dust again, can we restart / revisit the T5 Connie and NX threads - since they will no longer be "truly" endgame ships... (after we get the T5 versions, it'll be time to see them added to the T5U upgrade charts too...
Commander
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 270
# 64
10-07-2012, 06:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by snoge00f View Post
TSI, QEW, Pandas never won any games before the introduction of subnuke doffs, eh?

Just another guy trying to justify his purchase.

Don't you worry, nice cuddly Cryptic will make it all feel warm and fuzzy for you. They won't nerf your toys too much.

Enjoy playing the game with what will be left of the community once everyone is armed with these things.
Thanks for jumping in halfway through a thread without reading the thread and asserting my own opinions for me.

Before the introduction of the buff stripping DOFF the main problem that I am illustrating still existed: Targets with stacked healing and mitigation on them cannot be killed. Target switching will not help against good teams ready for this tactic. The only solution, then, is buff stripping via Sub Nuc. Yes, I would 100% say that Sad Pandas did not win against a solid group without Sub Nuc prior to the introduction of the buff stripping DOFF.

I think that the buff stripping DOFF needs to be removed from the game, but not before more solutions are added for Captains to be able to get through intense barrages of healing/mitigation given to their targets by other players.

It's funny how you could even say this when I clearly state that I don't even own any of those DOFFs... way to read a thread title, jump to conclusion, and then post with a pimp shout out for your own fleet that has nothing to do with the topic of the thread.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 668
# 65
10-07-2012, 06:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by freedumb4eva View Post
The MMO holy trinity is Healing, DPS, and Tank...
There is no such think as tanking in any PvP in any Game ever made.

HDT is Trinity in PvE

HDD Healing DPS Debuff... is Trinity in MMO PvP...

If you don't understand that then yes you don't understand MMO pvp.

PS we have run teams with ZERO sci before... and no we didn't loose yes it took longer to win... but no we didn't loose.
Subnuke Alpha MW... are captain skills that allow there classes to fill there roll... Ultimate dmg buff... Ultimate Debuff... Ultimate Oh no button so you can focus on healing team mates... THOSE are the captain skills that allow players to play there classes... Saying you can't win with out sub nuke so healings borked is as silly as saying you can't kill anyone with out alpha so healings broken... or you can't survive solo alpha firing with out rotate shields and MW... so dmg is broken.

There is nothing wrong with healing... yes its high... so is dmg however. YES its possible to power through team healing with out subnukes... still nukes are part of the game and there is no reason to not run with 1-2 sci on a team... its what the darn class is designed to do.

Last edited by husanakx; 10-07-2012 at 06:57 PM.
Commander
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 270
# 66
10-07-2012, 06:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dareau View Post
Day 1 MMO stuff, eh?

Here's some "Day 1 MMO stuff"...

1. Any game with a "holy trinity", typically fighter / healer / offensive magic classes also includes a rock-paper-scissors relationship.
In our case, it seems like escorts are built to be cruiser killers, cruisers pop science ships, and science ships pop escorts. Don't forget the inverse, cruisers shouldn't be able to hit an escort, sciences can barely dent/delay a cruiser, and escorts are supposed to be rendered impotent in the face of a good science.

2. Classes are supposed to be focused on their role. Thusly, a fighter isn't supposed to be able to self-heal at all, and if they do get a heal or two it's supposed to be much weaker than the healer's dedicated heal. Same with offensive maneuvers, a cruiser isn't supposed to put out the levels of damage that even a basic offensive player spits out.

However, STO (with it's high focus on the single-player solo play portions) has created a game full of "jacks of all trades", heal-scorts, DPS cruisers, etc. etc. Nevermind the ability to mix the ship of a fighter with the extra healing of an engie-healer while still maintaining 75+% of the offensive potential... Kirks, as it's colloquially known...

This DOff = encourage Kirking. Need a Sci but can't find one? Slot 2-3 "subnuc" DOffs, every so often you can focus fire on the heal cruiser and, with a string of lucky procs, debuff all his heals almost as effectively as a science would have, even though the pilot might be a tactical in an escort. Hence the calls for the nerfing.
Yeh, you're right, the DOFF is absurd, and should never have been added... I never once argued against that fact.

However, people must realize that the REASON it was added was in order to NOT have to deal with the overall problem that without Sub Nuc, killing targets in organized PVP is impossible, akin to the days of hours long PVP battles...

Thus, buff stripping DOFF was added to the game because it's a lot easier to add that DOFF than to rebalance healing and mitigation just so that it works better in PVP.

SO MY ARGUMENT IS:

Nerfing the buff stripping DOFF without fixing the healing/mitigation to suit PVP is ridiculous... You can't remove a band-aid before a wound is healed or you will get an infection... The infection previously was hours long PVP battles... we will be headed that way again as long as the healing issue is not tackled and suited more for PVP.

The fact that this DOFF will not be removed from the game, and that the buff stripping aspect of it will ALWAYS exist, is evidence to me that there is no ongoing desire amongst the game's developers to balance healing and mitigation to better suit PVP.
Commander
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 270
# 67
10-07-2012, 07:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by husanakx View Post
There is no such think as tanking in any PvP in any Game ever made.

HDT is Trinity in PvE

HDD Healing DPS Debuff... is Trinity in MMO PvP...

If you don't understand that then yes you don't understand MMO pvp.

PS we have run teams with ZERO sci before... and no we didn't loose yes it took longer to win... but no we didn't loose.
Subnuke Alpha MW... are captain skills that allow there classes to fill there roll... Ultimate dmg buff... Ultimate Debuff... Ultimate Oh no button so you can focus on healing team mates... THOSE are the captain skills that allow players to play there classes... Saying you can't win with out sub nuke so healings borked is as silly as saying you can't kill anyone with out alpha so healings broken... or you can't survive solo alpha firing with out rotate shields and MW... so dmg is broken.

There is nothing wrong with healing... yes its high... so is dmg however. YES its possible to power through team healing with out subnukes... still nukes are part of the game and there is no reason to not run with 1-2 sci on a team... its what the darn class is designed to do.
There is no such thing as PVP Holy Trinity, that's not even a term... you just made it up...

I honestly don't care when or how often your team wins or loses... Battles that last for 40 mins to 1 hour are evidence of broken game mechanics that are not balanced and suited for PVP. Way to not fall asleep during that game, though.

No, it's not possible to get through a good team's heals/mitigation without buff strip of some kind. Unless of course you are talking about those hours long battles where one side just falls asleep at the keyboard and you killed a target because everyone's eyes were falling out.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 597
# 68
10-07-2012, 07:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by freedumb4eva View Post
Before the introduction of the buff stripping DOFF the main problem that I am illustrating still existed: Targets with stacked healing and mitigation on them cannot be killed. Target switching will not help against good teams ready for this tactic. The only solution, then, is buff stripping via Sub Nuc. Yes, I would 100% say that Sad Pandas did not win against a solid group without Sub Nuc prior to the introduction of the buff stripping DOFF.
what your are saying makes no sence. then how do any teams win wtf? everyone can do what you are drcribing. since tsi and pandas do kill eachother with out sub doff ask how are they doing it.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 668
# 69
10-07-2012, 07:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by freedumb4eva View Post
Before the introduction of the buff stripping DOFF the main problem that I am illustrating still existed: Targets with stacked healing and mitigation on them cannot be killed. Target switching will not help against good teams ready for this tactic. The only solution, then, is buff stripping via Sub Nuc. Yes, I would 100% say that Sad Pandas did not win against a solid group without Sub Nuc prior to the introduction of the buff stripping DOFF.
BS.

I have NEVER EVER met a team we where not able to take down with simple target rotation.

Critz has won plenty of games vs good teams with ZERO nukes and ZERO doffs. It takes longer but its not impossible... and yes after the win one of us likely switched to a sci toon... cause ya who wants to be in the same match for over an hour.

Having said that NO ONE that isn't going to bring at least one Sci Toon is Deserving of a win...

Arguing for Borked doffs cause you can't win if you don't bring a proper team is a terrible arguement.

YES winning with out at least one sci captain on your team is really hard....

How is that broken again ?
Commander
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 270
# 70
10-07-2012, 07:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by husanakx View Post
BS.

I have NEVER EVER met a team we where not able to take down with simple target rotation.

Critz has won plenty of games vs good teams with ZERO nukes and ZERO doffs. It takes longer but its not impossible... and yes after the win one of us likely switched to a sci toon... cause ya who wants to be in the same match for over an hour.

Having said that NO ONE that isn't going to bring at least one Sci Toon is Deserving of a win...

Arguing for Borked doffs cause you can't win if you don't bring a proper team is a terrible arguement.

YES winning with out at least one sci captain on your team is really hard....

How is that broken again ?
Who is arguing for borked DOFFs? Reading comprehension, you has it?
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