Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,376
# 21
10-08-2012, 04:37 PM
It's absolutely stupid to make damage to the "past" ship hit yours. Absolutely and idiotically. As soon as you transported either ship out of their own time you break the causaility that they have upon you. In effect you have created new timelines for all of them.

Further, YOU still take damage, so why doesn't the damage pass to you, then pass directly to the FUTURE you? YOu shouldn't take extra damage for some BS reasoning like that.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,526
# 22
10-08-2012, 06:13 PM
I think trying to make sense of temporal mechanics as created by a science fiction show isn't the best way to approach this. What I do think is that, considering it's console from a very rare ship, it needs to be improved.

One improvement that I think is very needed is you should be able to cancel the effect early, like you can with the multi-vector assault ship. If you're aware that the past you is in trouble you should be able to end the effect.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 240
# 23
10-08-2012, 07:45 PM
By the sound of it, this console's cons as parsed by the system outweigh its pros. I've been saving up to hopefully attain a Mobius Destroyer and had my ideas that the console it comes with would be a fun addition to combat, but after the impressions listed here, I'm not so sure...

If any devs are listening (and I'm sure you are), I propose an alternative pair of ideas:
1. Reduce or remove the damage-passing from Past-self to Present-self. Perhaps making it a percentage of damage passed from the past-self to present, one which won't result in death*

2. Alter the behavior of the past self to result in a status effect when it is disabled or destroyed. For instance: No damage (or reduced damage) passed to the player, but when it is destroyed, it inflicts a temporary subsystem disable on the player, possibly impacted by the player's stats to recover from it. Explain it however you will; temporal backlash from the banishment of the past self creates a chronometric shock ripple that temporarily disables the present (and future) selves, what have you.
I have a suspicion that either of these options would be better received..and more fair...than a Soul Bond with a non-thinking NPC that does not have a concept of self preservation.

*The Manheim Effect's concept is novel, of course; changing your own past self changes your present. But the way STO's system interacts with this just makes it far too much of a liability. Making a player's fate dependent on a non-thinking NPC is not fun game design, punishing the player for something they did not do. The player learns to distrust the system with their fate and thus won't use the option that causes it.

You're seeing this very thing exhibited with the people in this thread, angry at their 'Suicide Console'.

The Artist Formerly Known As Nikotaka ][ Join Date: Jan 2010
"Can anyone remember when we used to be explorers...?"

Last edited by nikkyvix; 10-08-2012 at 07:47 PM.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,526
# 24
10-08-2012, 08:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikkyvix View Post
[indent]

2. Alter the behavior of the past self to result in a status effect when it is disabled or destroyed. For instance: No damage (or reduced damage) passed to the player, but when it is destroyed, it inflicts a temporary subsystem disable on the player, possibly impacted by the player's stats to recover from it. Explain it however you will; temporal backlash from the banishment of the past self creates a chronometric shock ripple that temporarily disables the present (and future) selves, what have you
This has to be the best suggestion for it so far. Not only is it detailed but it also makes sense. It's an idea that will make the console very useful without being overpowered. I vote for this.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,234
# 25
10-09-2012, 01:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodentmaster View Post
It's absolutely stupid to make damage to the "past" ship hit yours. Absolutely and idiotically. As soon as you transported either ship out of their own time you break the causaility that they have upon you. In effect you have created new timelines for all of them.

Further, YOU still take damage, so why doesn't the damage pass to you, then pass directly to the FUTURE you? YOu shouldn't take extra damage for some BS reasoning like that.
Well, that is the flaw in the logic of this console. If past ship is taking heavy damage, passing it on to present ship, which is also taking 'immediate' damage, the future ship should already be gone as it is receive past ship damage + present ship damage.

Then again, I guess these things were never consistent in the Trek series (which I realise is a poor basis for compairison where STO is concerned, but.....) I guess the only time we've seen something similar to this effect was 'All Good Things' where the three Enterprise-D's were trying to colapse the paradox anomaly; the future Enterprise-D wasn't destroyed immediately subsequent to the other two. Though that could easily be dismissed as either Q meddling or a by-product of the anomaly.

STAR TREK BATTLES - HIGH DPS PLAYERS NEED NOT APPY
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,764
# 26
10-09-2012, 01:59 AM
Except AGT was all about how things in the future can screw with things in the past, which is a complete inversion of what is seen here...

Also, the depiction of time and how messing with it affects casuality in Star Trek is inconsistent.

Which is consistent with Quantum theory.

I think.

Maybe?

Or not.

...this is why I'm a dumb Tac. I failed Temporal Mechanics back in the Academy. :p
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lt. Comm. Pion
What should I wish upon the endless universe;
To be able to smile and forgive everything;
That's right, if we light up the dream in our hearts without averting our eyes;
We should be able to walk whatever tomorrow comes...

I am V. Adm. Kha Yuung, and I approve of this message.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,234
# 27
10-09-2012, 02:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by khayuung View Post
Except AGT was all about how things in the future can screw with things in the past, which is a complete inversion of what is seen here...

Also, the depiction of time and how messing with it affects casuality in Star Trek is inconsistent.

Which is consistent with Quantum theory.

I think.

Maybe?

Or not.

...this is why I'm a dumb Tac. I failed Temporal Mechanics back in the Academy. :p
I realise that - my point is that it's the only real instance I can think of where we had past, present and future versions of the same ship in one place, and for that segment at least, the demise of the past and present versions of the Enterprise-D didn't have an immediate impact on the future version.

STAR TREK BATTLES - HIGH DPS PLAYERS NEED NOT APPY
Ensign
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 21
# 28
10-09-2012, 02:21 AM
Some additional notes on the Manheim device.

Aggro: Though it takes several seconds for the additional ships to start firing, I've witnessed on several occasions that the NPCs in the area -immediately- target the time-cloned vessels.

They will drop me as their primary target even if I've gotten them to half health and they should hate me like no tomorrow. Perhaps good in one sense...not so good in that they are, to be terribly blunt, crap.

They fold like weak tin cans and do huge amounts of damage to you in the process. Then, as everything in the area swaps aggro to you (yes me, not teammates who've been focussing fire on them for some time) and strips the last of your health away.

I have to say this item is a misdesigned piece of cack.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,234
# 29
10-09-2012, 02:35 AM
Well, have to admit - despite the frequent comments/opinions pertaining to how superior the Mobius is over the Wells, I do take comfort in the fact that the Tipler Cylinder is at least more effective than the Manheim device.

STAR TREK BATTLES - HIGH DPS PLAYERS NEED NOT APPY
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,141
# 30 CRYPTIC - Sort IT!!!!
10-09-2012, 03:26 AM
Well I tried the Suicide Console again last night - ROFL immediate death, I didn't even have time to hit the tipler, it was in Fleet Alert and the NPCs immediately targetted my past ship.

What's more, people in PvP are becoming aware of this now, in Kerrat when I used it the guy stopped targetting me and was either observant or lucky but he one shotted my past ship which nailed me good and proper.

CRYPTIC I did not pay hundreds of Lobi for damaged goods, if you want people to keep buying lockbox keys you had better sort out your mechanics and make them worthwhile because this console seriously stinks. I for one will no longer be buying keys until the product is proven, accepted and acknowledged as superior by this community in the future- oh yes and what's more I shall be advising my fleet of 300+ members to do the same!
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