Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 94
# 61
10-12-2012, 11:24 AM
Another idea, just make it two future versions of yourself?
Career Officer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 6,233
# 62
10-12-2012, 11:44 AM
Originally Posted by nikkyvix View Post
Ahh, we're getting a bit off-topic here, but you must remember that Star Trek itself is not consistent with its rules of temporal and dimensional existence.

What happens in 'All Good Things..' with the destruction of past Enterprises was already brought up by matteo a few posts ago, conflicting with what happens in First Contact when we're shown a temporary view of Assimilated Earth by Borg time travel (which suggests a linear single-dimension progression, if ignoring paradoxes). And the different existences of the 'Prime Trek' and 'Abrams Trek' universes show that, at least sometimes, alternative realities are created when time travel is instituted. 'Yesterday's Enterprise', an example of single-time past-affects-future, though that was before AGT... There is no sense in time travel when you include notes of past interception and intervention paradoxes and the fact that time travel is achieved in many different ways. There are multiple theories for the effects of time travel and since we have no real-world way to prove any more viable, then infinite quantum existences branching off by the simple difference of a lone atom bouncing left when it would otherwise bounce right, can be as viable as single-string linear time akin to Back to the Future and most other popular Time Travel serials. It's up to creative license.
I might have known the nerd-gang would whack me across the ears with Star Trek episodes. :) It's all good, though, we're all nerds here, after a fashion.

And yes, there are many time travel theories. But guess what? There's no "United Federation of Planets." We don't really have a temporal ship. And there's no real Omega 13 device. Our Beryllium Sphere is just wire with plaster around it. It's all fake.

Still should all make a bit of sense, though. Like our Manheim-ed ship from the past being physically linked to us in a manner that duplicating ourselves doesn't just create an entirely new, equally powerful, temporal ship. For the separated chevron of the Ody it made conceptually sense to have our 'main' have less hull. For duplicates of temporal ships that would make no sense, though. So, short of suddenly having 2 equally strong ships, the only real way to 'connect' the two ships is thru 'sharing' incurred damage. Love the concept.

You are content with the Manheim Device, which is totally fine! But that changes not the fact that it is a console that puts a player's fate in the hands of an unthinking NPC.


If I am to die, I would prefer it be because I made a mistake in strategy. Not because my quantum duplicate had a pants-on-head moment and flew into an exploding Tactical Cube. :)
So, basically, what you're saying is, that you'd like to see the NPC's A.I. improved? I wouldn't mind seeing a Manheim-ed alter of myself fight a little smarter, either (in fact, wouldn't mind seeing it EVE-style, where you can actually 'assume direct control' over your pets). I'm just not in favor of people being able to summon a new, and equally strong, copy of themselves, without there being some mechanism in place to mitigate such blatant OP-ness.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 240
# 63
10-12-2012, 12:43 PM
Originally Posted by meimeitoo View Post
So, basically, what you're saying is, that you'd like to see the NPC's A.I. improved? I wouldn't mind seeing a Manheim-ed alter of myself fight a little smarter, either (in fact, wouldn't mind seeing it EVE-style, where you can actually 'assume direct control' over your pets). I'm just not in favor of people being able to summon a new, and equally strong, copy of themselves, without there being some mechanism in place to mitigate such blatant OP-ness.
Oh h3ll yeah, I'd be all over A.I. improvements! Quite frankly the enemy A.I. is repetitive, predictable, and honestly uninspired. That can be said for many games and isn't unexpected in an MMO. This A.I. is dumber than a deep sea provisions buoy made out of mesh wire and makes up for this by having damage modifiers to make them any sort of threat. But that's a different topic.

What I am basically saying (in the section over the ellipses you quoted) is I'd rather use a console that doesn't have a negative so devastatingly detrimental to the player. It is on a scale where even making two complete player-copy clones of oneself (with player stats, powers, and that horrid A.I.) would not make it balanced. The console seems to want to be a high-risk, high-reward option for combat. The high risk is there. What is the high reward? Do they fight stronger? Do they hit harder? Currently it seems to be high-risk, moderate-reward.

Or 'Hardcore' mode, if one wants to try combat with a handicap on the field. Might be good build and strategies practice for the No-Win Scenario: See if you can destroy all the enemy vessels before they take your Past-Self down.

And yes, you're right. If ever there were a nerd haven, it's in Star Trek. And I'm comfortable with that. Even with Trek's mangled continuity, which is the reason I spent that exhaustive paragraph in quote.

The Artist Formerly Known As Nikotaka ][ Join Date: Jan 2010
"Can anyone remember when we used to be explorers...?"
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 51
# 64
10-12-2012, 02:10 PM
[quote= Ah, the P2W topic rears its ugly head again. I have all of the lockbox ships and fly them all. I don't do so to win. I do so because I enjoy flying different ships and I like making builds that provide me with entertainment. I know I'm not the only one who thinks like this. I don't even PvP as I don't find it enjoyable. All of a sudden those P2W ships don't sound as dirty as you're trying to make them out to be. Maybe you're so against them because you don't have any? I'm thinking the green-eyed jealousy monster has bitten you. [/QUOTE]

LOL the green eyed jealousy monster... Dude I want some of what you been really dont have an issue with P2W ships in general ... My issue is with the fleets and teams who use these ships and their consoles for a cheap win while PVP'ing ... Now lets take a look at the console here everybody is so upset with if it was working properly and I had it on my fed toon and used it in PvP it would what triple my damage and dps ... I have 3 cannons up front all pushing 2100 dmg and 1370 dps a quantum torpedo that does another 3500 dmg and 3 turrets on the back all pushing 500+ dmg and 600+ DPS and thats before I buff up with an alpha strike or any other buffs now if you was to multiply that by 3 me and my old and future self would obliterate anything but the tankiest of tanks and I am only 1`person ... now imagine my 4 teammates or fleetmates using the same tactics.... Which is what gets done by lots of teams and fleets whenever there is a new toy that craptic releases into the game.... Its not jealousy its a sense of wanting PVP to be more about skill in the individual players and how they play their role in team they are in and to quit being about who can spend the most money and get the best gear ... Many of us live paycheck to paycheck and cant afford the new ships everytime craptic releases 1.... But really none of this is meant for you because as you said you dont PVP... But there are a lot of people who do and I am 1 of them ... If it wasnt for PVP I would have left this game a long time ago... No way would I enjoy playing the same missions over and over again or doing nothing but farming ... But as it stands this is the best space fighting game out there at least that I know of ... oh and a FYI I choose not to buy the ships from the store altho as soon as I save up the EC I will end up buying a bug ship from the exchange ...But only because I really do see it as the best tac ship in the game ... Turns like a BoP has more DPS than an escort with the hull and shields comparable to a cruiser ... But I like it for the tactical reasons not because it has a special console because to my knowledge it doesnt ...
Target locked Captain....Alpha loaded....5,4,3,2,1.... Target dead captain, locking on next target
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,793
# 65
10-12-2012, 02:53 PM
Like I said, I don't PvP, but I think only ships and consoles that EVERYONE has access to should be allowed in PvP to give everyone an equal footing. Special ships (they tend to be captured or bought off other factions, don't they?) should be PvE. That's my opinion bearing in mind that I don't PvP...

They should still fix the Manheim, though.
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 13
# 66
11-01-2012, 10:54 AM
Originally Posted by darramouss1 View Post
(For those who aren't familiar with it, it creates a future version and past version of you to appear and fight alongside you. Rather effectively, too, as they have the same weapons you do, as opposed to the vectors on the Multi Vector escort. If your past version gets damaged, however, that damage passes on to you.)
Are we using the same console? Because, at no time, have the past and future versions of my ship shared the same weapons as my present self. These copies are equipped with the Mobius' standard weapons, while my present self is equipped with AP cannons, a Chroniton DBB, photons, and turrets. They also lack the shields/deflectos/engines on my present self.

I wouldn't mind using the console and taking my past self's damage if these traits were all the same, but calling them past/future copies with stripped down systems and then allowing me to suffer their damage is just stupid. It makes the console useless in a heated battle, effectively earning it the title of a "suicide console".

Everything about how this ship is introduced/used is a slap in the face to logic. If they said it made "alternate timeline copies" it would make more sense. Also, how are we buying the story that they were stolen by tholians and stripped down? Wouldn't this make tholians extremely powerful, possessing 29th century tech? And how, as a time-travelling species, would you not travel back and notice or correct this? It would only make sense if these ships were given to us by future feds, not stolen. Whoever writes these backstories makes as much sense as a republican.
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 683
# 67
08-04-2013, 01:26 AM
We should coin a new phrase: "I Manheimed myself."

Seriously, the concept of causality being implemented as a mechanic is a great idea on its own. However, with crappy A.I. and the sudden burst of threat generated by the duplicates, the console is indeed only good as a second self destruct button.

I can totally see why the Tholians did not remove this thing when they stripped the ship.

Lieutenant Thriskene: Commander, it seems this device brings a past version and future version of yourself into a possibly dangerous situation. Scans indicate that causality is still in effect.

Commander Huskene: LoL. Leave it be. If the apes somehow manage to capture this ship, we'll have some very entertaining situations to laugh about.

Lorewise, the concept is a bit flawed. Don't these ships have temporal shields that are specifically designed to protect the ship from annoying things like causality?
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 1,204
# 68
08-04-2013, 02:11 AM
Quick question... Whats is a paradox? Answe that console.

If you use that console and bring your past self to the present and your past self gets destroyed.. then you were not ever in the present to bring your past self to the present because you were dead already.

The devs should never have tied the past ship to the present for damage, instead it should bring an older version of yourself from the past of another universe. Everyone can get a ground device that does the same thing but has nothing to do with time, so why not in the future a ship console is created that does it. Older ship deals less damage and future ship deals more balancing out to the triple damage.
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 683
# 69
08-04-2013, 03:55 AM
Originally Posted by jetwtf View Post
The devs should never have tied the past ship to the present for damage, instead it should bring an older version of yourself from the past of another universe.
Or, in order to keep the time travel theme, an alternate timeline. They don't even need to be your past and future alternates.

Make it work exactly like the Shard of Possibilities and it'll be fine. And remove the threat burst, so they have time to do some actual damage.
Career Officer
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,028
# 70
08-04-2013, 04:26 AM
The main fact is that cryptic wont do **** until this thread reaches 100 pages in 3 days and even then its put at position 3686432 right below "fix the galaxy".. The fact that you paid loads of money to get the ship doesnt interesst them. It only meens that the number of ppl who also have the ship is so small that cryptic cares even less...

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