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Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 472
# 21
10-11-2012, 12:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by whamhammer1 View Post
You could also get an Armitage, it pretty much has all you are asking for (except for the standard cruiser appearance, but is appearance everything)?
In a game based on ships, when you spend the majority of your time looking at the ship, and for someone like me, whose primary interest is ships...yes, appearance is everything.

This is further evidenced by those who fought the T5 Connie battle for so long. Remember all the proposals for T3 Connies, T3.5 Connies, weak T4 Connies, etc? People were willing to gimp themselves to a certain degree, just for the appearance.

In a way, my proposal is no different. The specs I laid out are far from OP, but if given the proper appearance, I can say I honestly wouldn't care. Because I'd rather fly around in a ship that may be a bit underwhelming in the pew pew factor, but looks like what I would imagine my officer in command of.

The Armitage just doesn't do it for me. Too odd looking. I much prefer the "traditional" Starfleet designs.
The account formerly known as C_Carmichael
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"You shoot him, I shoot you, I leave both your bodies here and go out for a late night snack. I'm thinking maybe pancakes." ~ John Casey
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,064
# 22
10-11-2012, 12:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccarmichael07 View Post
Escort Weapons on an Escort/Cruiser hull? Did I mention cannons, dual cannons or DHC in my specifications? I'm pretty sure I only mentioned Dual Beam Banks.

As for "personal OP ship" this particular spec is not OP. The hull is 2,000 HP higher than a VA Escort, and 7,000 LESS than a VA cruiser. Meanwhile, the turn rate, while higher than current cruisers, is still less than both escorts and science vessels, with a loss of 2-4 deg/sec. This ship is hardly OP. Additionally, you gain a foreward weapon slot (over science vessels) but lose an aft slot (under cruisers).

The only thing which might be a tad OP is the console layout. However, you notice that it has 3 Engineering consoles rather than 4. This is a big hit to survivability, therefore the 4 Tac consoles can be justified to compensate.

Essentially, this ship is a "light cruiser" for VA level. It has SOME survivability, though not much more than an escort, and it gains some manueverability, but at the sacrafice of Utility (Science) and Tankability (Full Cruiser). Additionally, because you don't have the cannons, you aren't pulling the alpha strikes of Escorts.

Seems like a pretty balanced build to me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccarmichael07 View Post
Mid Size Border Patrol Cruiser

Length: 415 Meters (same as Prometheus)

Configuration: Vanguard Saucer, scaled down by 50-75%, with an honest to God neck section, like the Excelsior, but not as upright, and 2 swept-back nacelles, like a Sovereign, blended together in a whole new 2409 style.

Hull: 32000

Turn Rate: 11 deg/sec

Weapons: 4 Fore, 3 Aft

Consoles: 3 Eng, 2 Sci, 4 Tac

Bridge Officers:

Cmdr Tac
Lt Cmdr Eng
Lt Tac
Lt Eng
Ens Sci


What makes this ship unique? First of all, it has the style of a cruiser, with 2 nacelles instead of 4 like the Prometheus, without the size and the mass of a Sovereign or Galaxy. You can actually turn this boat, giving you some tactical options. But, if you look at the Hull, while you might be a bit stronger than an Escort or a Science Vessel, you aren't as strong as a battleship, so you need to be cautious. Also, you need to pick your science ability carefully, because you only get one.

Think of this as kind of a "Light Beam Boat" with enough turn rate that you could make use of some dual beam banks for your approach shot before going into your circle formation of broadsides. You get a little bit of the benefit of escorts (reduced turn rate) at the sacrafice of reduced hull, without having to fly a science ship.

I think of this as the kind of ship Starfleet might put out on the border, while the big ships are off fighting the war. It's tough, it can fight, it's just not as big as the capital ships.
First off, the DSSV has a turn rate of 9, and is the "current science with an engineering focus" starship. This thing is a hair (-2) slower than the RSV, but faster turning than the DSSV.

Second, there are plenty of beam-scort builds out there, and half the trick of "escorts" is the ability to fire off a half-dozen weapon enhancement powers that double to triple the base weapons damage in a massive "spike". This ship has plenty of that (6 Tac slots to include a Lt Cmdr and Cmdr slot), AP: O III, AP: B II, BFaW II, TS II, 2x TT I (rotation) = an awful heck of a lot of damage from those beams, and the beams are effective from a lot farther out than the 2km that cannons are best at. Combine that with the 5 Engineering powers (so you have 2x shield heals, 2x hull heals on a constant alternating chain with a third "panic heal" or other general-utility Engie power (EWP), and topping it off with either the "universal DOT-killing" HE or mobility-insurance Polarize Hull and you have a ship that's very hard to kill, spikes almost as good as any of the "dedicated" escorts, turns faster than at least 2 science ships (DSSV & Nebula), and has the survivability of a lot of these "engineering secondaried" ships.

For ha-has, I'd like to compare this to the Patrol Escort (or whatever the other tier 5 "freebiee" escort is against the Promethius), as that ship is the "engineering secondaried" escort. I know, BOff-wise, compared to that build you've "slid" a slot from the Lt. Sci to the Ens. Tactical, and swapped the LtCmdr Tactical into a LtCmdr Engineering...

Off to get kids, more later...
Well, with the upgrade announcement leaving NX and Connie fans in the dust again, can we restart / revisit the T5 Connie and NX threads - since they will no longer be "truly" endgame ships... (after we get the T5 versions, it'll be time to see them added to the T5U upgrade charts too...
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 2,825
# 23
10-11-2012, 02:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccarmichael07 View Post
Looks like a good build, but without knowing some other specifics, like hull strength, turn rate, etc. it's hard to say for certain.

If given a hull of about 33-35k, with a turn rate of about 10-13 deg/sec, this would be a fine ship.

As you pointed out, the Lt. Cmdr. Uni slot might be a bit much, but I think dual Lt. Uni slots would be doable.
Yes i think a Hull strenght of about 34000 and a turn rate of a Luna Class would be perfect for that ship.

So then it will be two Lt. universal, i wasn't sure about it. But i think it would be a good ship.
It's too bad that we can't create mods for game for ourselves.

I think cryptic should release one of the ships being presented here. I'm sure that once the playerbase has taken a fancy to ships like them*, they will sell like hot cakes!

*the chimera is a good example of hybrid ship, people will fight over them to get one, once a similar ship will hit the C or Z-Store!


Thank you for reading or ignoring, depending on who you are.

-> -> -> STO players unite and say NO to ARC <- <- <-
T6 Guardian Class design / A 25th century Ambassador refit
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,018
# 24
10-11-2012, 03:26 PM
small ships that arent squat bricks like the defiant are great , stuff like the fleet nova are an excellent example of how to do it right
12th Fleet
Rear Admiral , Engineering Division
U.S.S. Sheffield N.C.C. 92016
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,553
# 25
10-11-2012, 03:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by yreodred View Post

Here is what i would like to see:
Depending on focus its BOFF stations should consist of:
1 Cmdr Engineering
1 Lt.Cmdr (depending on the ships focus Tac, Engineering or Science)
1 Lt.Cmdr Universal *
1 Lt. Universal*
(*i am not so sure about it, maybe it would be better if it where just two Lt. universal?)

Consoles could be like this:
Engineering: 3 (4 on engineering variant)
Science: 3 (4 on science variant)
Tactical: 3 (4 on tactical variant)

Weapons:
4 fore
4 aft

Devices: 3

Energy:
Engineering version: +5 Engines/Weapons, +10 Shields
Science Version: +5 Engines/Shields, +10 Aux
Tactical Version: +5 Shields/Engines, +10 Weapons

Its ship parts could include some Sovereign and some more Galaxy like design elements.
(basically one should be able to build the ship you described and the one i was describing previously.)

What do you think?
Man where to start... I like you yeo, I really do, but this idea needs work. Allow me to explain.

You essentially recreated the Odyssey with your console layout, but that's kind of a norm for most tier 5 ships, having a layout like that, so no issues there.

Secondly, you only have 4 BOff slots. On a 10 console ship. Even with your unis it's weird (btw, two LtCmdr slots is too much. Seriously. Too much. I mean can you imagine the offensive power that a double tac LtCmdr would bring to the field while still having the Cmdr engi for survivability? Does the term BROKEN ring a bell?). I would propose turning that uni ltcmdr into a uni lt (like you put in brackets), make one of those uni lts into whatever it is you don't currently have atm (like if you have ltcmdr sci, cmdr, engi, make the uni tac, and so on and so forth), and add a uni ensign. So it would turn into these possible layouts:

Cmdr Engi, LtCmdr Tac, Lt, Sci, Lt. Uni, Ensign Uni
Cmdr Engi, LtCmdr Sci, Lt. Tac, Lt. Uni, Ensign Uni
Cmdr Engi, LtCmdr Engi, Lt. Uni, Lt. Uni, Ensign Uni
(only reason I have the double Lt. Uni on the engi version is because you're probably already shafted by having the Cmdr Engi and LtCmdr Engi, so I want some flexibility to avoid further shafting).

With that BOff layout, it would force you to keep a balance of abilities while still allowing specialization into certain areas with your two universal slots.

The bonus powers are ok, except for the engi version I would say +5 to everything, since it's supposed to be the all around good, the other two power bonus layouts I have no issue.

Devices and weapons, no issues.

Also yeah, I agree, stats are needed. HP, Shield mod, Turn rate, Inertia, the works. I would propose 34k base hp, 1.0-1.1 shield mod, base turn rate of 10.

...
I just realized. You guys essentially recreated the Fleet Vor'Cha Retrofit. *facepalm*
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Tired of Wasting EC and Time trying to get Superior Romulan Operative BOffs? Here's a cheap and easy way to get them, with an almost 100% chance of success.
Why the Devs can't make PvE content harder.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 87
# 26
10-11-2012, 03:36 PM
The new 1000 day (or $200 ship) Chimera is a destroyer class which seem to be what this thread is asking for (I know it was mentioned before) , but if Cryptic are going to be crypticesk it is highly possible we will see a 2.5k Zen Chimera before long (up to 6 months say) with all the posh moving parts taken off , the shine dulled off and with a mickey mouse console like the Regent one (but not that one obviously). Many will of course get annoyed if they do but it would make money. Maybe even if they do the Andorian lock box the ship would have similar stats to a "destroyer class" would fit the style of the Andorian ship from ENT in my opinion so keep eyes out for a "destroy class" of ship afterall (as classified on STwiki ship chart) KDF has Raiders, Raptors, Battle Cruisers and Warships as the main classes and FED has Escorts, Cruisers and Sci vessels, so a forth main class on FED at least wouldn't go a miss really.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 2,825
# 27
10-11-2012, 04:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hereticknight085 View Post
Man where to start... I like you yeo, I really do, but this idea needs work. Allow me to explain.

You essentially recreated the Odyssey with your console layout, but that's kind of a norm for most tier 5 ships, having a layout like that, so no issues there.

Secondly, you only have 4 BOff slots. On a 10 console ship. Even with your unis it's weird (btw, two LtCmdr slots is too much. Seriously. Too much. I mean can you imagine the offensive power that a double tac LtCmdr would bring to the field while still having the Cmdr engi for survivability? Does the term BROKEN ring a bell?). I would propose turning that uni ltcmdr into a uni lt (like you put in brackets), make one of those uni lts into whatever it is you don't currently have atm (like if you have ltcmdr sci, cmdr, engi, make the uni tac, and so on and so forth), and add a uni ensign. So it would turn into these possible layouts:

Cmdr Engi, LtCmdr Tac, Lt, Sci, Lt. Uni, Ensign Uni
Cmdr Engi, LtCmdr Sci, Lt. Tac, Lt. Uni, Ensign Uni
Cmdr Engi, LtCmdr Engi, Lt. Uni, Lt. Uni, Ensign Uni
(only reason I have the double Lt. Uni on the engi version is because you're probably already shafted by having the Cmdr Engi and LtCmdr Engi, so I want some flexibility to avoid further shafting).

With that BOff layout, it would force you to keep a balance of abilities while still allowing specialization into certain areas with your two universal slots.
I agree, the Lt.Cmdr universal was a half-baked idea, especially in combination with a Lt uni.

I like your BOFF layouts way better.
The principal thing is that the player should be encouraged to use a lot of combinations of BOFF powers a "normal" crusier woudln't have. So the ship is much more versatile than most other ships and certainly ANY other Starfleet ship.
Thats what your suggested BOFF layouts helps archieving.

So the different versions would have the following different stats:
Engineering Variant
Tactical: - - -
Engineering: Cmdr., Lt. Cmdr.
Science: - - -
Universal: 2x Lt., 1x Ensign
Energy: +5 everything

Tactical Variant
Tactical: Lt. Cmdr.
Engineering: Cmdr.
Science: Lt.
Universal: Lt., Ensign
Energy: +5 Shields/Engines, +10 Weapons

Sciene Variant
Tactical: Lt.
Engineering: Cmdr.
Science: Lt. Cmdr.
Universal: Lt., Ensign
Energy: +5 Engines/Shields, +10 Aux


Quote:
Originally Posted by hereticknight085 View Post
Also yeah, I agree, stats are needed. HP, Shield mod, Turn rate, Inertia, the works. I would propose 34k base hp, 1.0-1.1 shield mod, base turn rate of 10.

...
I just realized. You guys essentially recreated the Fleet Vor'Cha Retrofit. *facepalm*


For the other stats i would say:
Type: Exploration Vessel (multi role)
Weapons: 4 Fore/ 4 Aft
Inertia: 40
Crew: 300 - 400
Hull HP: 34000 or 35000
Turn Rate: 11 (slightly less then a Intrepid Class)
Shield mod: .98 (not as strong as a Galaxys Shields)
Impulse Modifier: 0.15
Miscellaneous: No Cannons possible, no cloak (of course)

Appearance:
As already been discussed on previous posts in this thread.
Most important is that this ship has a lot of possible (balanced) ship designs and combinations. Please no holes in pylons or anywhere else, no rough edges or spikes that can be found on some of cryptics designs. Just some well balanced and conservative Starfleet ship parts.
Elements of the Sovereign AND the Galaxy Class should be availlable. So the player is able to create a characteristic long or wide ship just a he or she likes. It's general shape should be more like a classical Starfleet ship featuring a Saucer, Hull, pylons and nacelles.
I think the Starfleet Heavy Cruiser could be a good example of how to integrate different design elements on one ship (but with just two Nacelles of course, not four).


Thank you for reading or ignoring, depending on who you are.

-> -> -> STO players unite and say NO to ARC <- <- <-
T6 Guardian Class design / A 25th century Ambassador refit

Last edited by yreodred; 10-11-2012 at 07:46 PM.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 341
# 28
10-12-2012, 02:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by galr25 View Post
The new 1000 day (or $200 ship) Chimera is a destroyer class which seem to be what this thread is asking for (I know it was mentioned before) , but if Cryptic are going to be crypticesk it is highly possible we will see a 2.5k Zen Chimera before long (up to 6 months say) with all the posh moving parts taken off , the shine dulled off and with a mickey mouse console like the Regent one (but not that one obviously). Many will of course get annoyed if they do but it would make money. Maybe even if they do the Andorian lock box the ship would have similar stats to a "destroyer class" would fit the style of the Andorian ship from ENT in my opinion so keep eyes out for a "destroy class" of ship afterall (as classified on STwiki ship chart) KDF has Raiders, Raptors, Battle Cruisers and Warships as the main classes and FED has Escorts, Cruisers and Sci vessels, so a forth main class on FED at least wouldn't go a miss really.
Yeah the Chimera seems to be a good match for what the OP was looking for, although style-wise it's not exactly the sleekest ship. I also think that some of the lockbox ships offer the sort of stats the Op was looking for; though, again, without the sort of "Starfleet 2409" styling. Perhaps the Vesta class will be a solution, though it probably won't be as tactically oriented, but we will see.

Former/Cryptic Name: Captain_Hans_Langsdorff
Founding member, Special Service Squadron
"Fear God and Dread Nought." First Sea Lord, Adm. Jacky Fisher
Lieutenant
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 87
# 29
10-12-2012, 04:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by theindefatigable View Post
Yeah the Chimera seems to be a good match for what the OP was looking for, although style-wise it's not exactly the sleekest ship. I also think that some of the lockbox ships offer the sort of stats the Op was looking for; though, again, without the sort of "Starfleet 2409" styling. Perhaps the Vesta class will be a solution, though it probably won't be as tactically oriented, but we will see.
I agree the Chimera is abit 'Bulky' , specifically in the hull area. Reposition the pylons to put necles on an angle and abit lower and throw a 2409 style hull on her and it would be closer to what a Cruiser Escort would be. I think the class might be better called the Interceptor class rather than Destroyer maybe. To me destroyer sounds more like a larger ship all about Fire power and an unmoveable object.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,018
# 30
10-12-2012, 05:11 AM
well the vesta is assault cruiser in size , so it might be a tad too big for what we're after here
12th Fleet
Rear Admiral , Engineering Division
U.S.S. Sheffield N.C.C. 92016
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