Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 90
# 491
10-11-2012, 03:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by weylandjuarez View Post
Irrelevant.

Cryptic is wholly-owned subsidiary of PWE - PWE funds Cryptic, not vice-versa. PWE gets money for every one of those deals (a better deal, I suspect than the companies that partner with them given the plethora of players that sign up with dummy accounts) - whether people pay for Zen (which is PWE's currency - not Cryptics) or they fill out the surveys, PWE still makes money.

Any money Cryptic makes (and the way things are set up now, they may actually get nothing) would go to PWE anyway.

I don't doubt that some of the Zen in the Dilithium Exchange is from stipends and Zen offers but the bulk of it is from paying customers. In fact, you're debating the point with one.
It's not irrelevant, it is a measure of fact that each month there is an unconfirmed amount of store points that are given out to all the various qualifying accounts. Now since we don't have an established percentage of players who get that monthly stipend we cannot say one way or another how many of those points are put up on the market to get dilithium for things like fleet equipment or fleet starbase development or what have you. There is also the facts that free points can be easily obtained by people. We can also safely assume that some people do. Now to what extent I can't say, regardless of that fact it would be reasonable to think that a good portion of points that get spent on the game can be directly attributed to that on top of direct purchasing from those who are willing to spend the money to do so. Without direct statistical information from the owners however, we cannot establish what kind of percentage that actually is. So no, it's not irrelevant when the figures cannot be directly accessed by us.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 984
# 492
10-11-2012, 03:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by weylandjuarez View Post
What I meant by that is that any kind of veteran rewards scheme is pretty much pointless in a F2P game - had STO been F2P from the beginning it most likely wouldn't have had one (or it would've been some kind of reward scheme tied to C-Store purchases) - ever since F2P came in though, STO's been a strange kind of F2P/P2P hybrid - again, this should've all been worked out before F2P launched.
I hear ya, Cryptic's failure to totally adapt to change has partially been the game's Achilles' heel. The other being the ability to consistently create content and update the game (PvP, FEs, Exploration, etc). For instance, when this rolled out they should have renamed the 'Veteran rewards' to 'Lifetime perks' or something, would've made more sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by macronius View Post
This! Their ability to outdo their own failures is quite impressive. If only this power could be harnessed for good.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 90
# 493
10-11-2012, 03:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rickeyredshirt View Post
Considering you are not privy to viewing the bottom line on the ledger, anything you 'think' that you know is total speculation.



You must not have been around these forums much or for very long. There are many issues that have divided the players going back to the Galaxy X fiasco (see, my time around this game has rewarded me with knowledge of this game's past, guess that makes me a true 'veteran' and not a tin one). You keep on beating the money drum to boot. Once again (or for the hundreth time) it's not about money. Something can be said about putting in the time.
Gaming is ALL about money. That is the mainstream MMO dynamic now. Back when online gaming comprised of flash games or simple MUD's where these activities were created by someone and didn't cost anything to play aside from the cost of connecting to the internet is when money didn't matter. Online gaming is now a business and because it is a business, MAKING money is the principle motivator for making games such as these. I have been around these forums forever and finally decided to post here instead of starting a chat war in game. I have spent time on this game for a very long time, and I see all the changes and improvements and some destruction of good things in this game. I have also witnessed it many times over spanning dozens of games. You keep making assumptions about me thinking that it justifies this argument. People naturally disagree, but what has been done mechanically in the game has not segregated the community in terms of what people get. The only thing that has changed with this is that LTS all get the same rewards regardless of time subscribed. Great I'm thrilled for that. Getting upset about any one particular thing regarding it however unless you are a monthly subscriber or a F2P account is really a moot point because all of the LTS are now officially on the same page reward wise. Which is the way it should be since we all put forth a sizeable amount of money to get it in the first place because we enjoy the game enough to do so. Arguing the semantic that someone payed earlier than someone else is as I stated many times already. An entitlement issue and an ego problem nothing more.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,020
# 494
10-11-2012, 03:12 PM
And putting my money where my mouth is (so to speak)...

This is what they should've done IMO:

1) Formally announce the end of the veteran rewards at 1000 days.

2) Announce that all Gold subscribers would get complimentary LTS status on reaching 1000 days.

3) Offer discounts on LTS to Gold subscribers based on the length of time they'd subscribed for.

4) Retired monthly subscriptions leaving F2P or LTS as the only options.

5) Allowed Silver players to use their accumulated play-time towards vet rewards should they purchase a LTS.

6) Started putting certain veteran rewards into the Lobi store - 1 new one every couple of months or so.

7) Reduce the Zen price on certain necessary perks (respecs).

8) Ultimately (within 6-12 months) phase out the LTS (to new purchasers) altogether - giving the players plenty of notice that it's happening (leaving themselves the option of reintroducing it for short periods of time).

9) If they wanted to be really nice to LTS players they could've given them a Lobi stipend too (say 10 Lobi per month).

That's just one way of doing it - doubtless there's many other people could think of.
Please join our peaceful protest to help make STO a better game
Proudly not contributing to PWE's bottom-line since October 2012
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 984
# 495
10-11-2012, 03:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by luxandra View Post
Gaming is ALL about money.
*derp* really? *derp*


Quote:
Originally Posted by luxandra View Post
That is the mainstream MMO dynamic now. Back when online gaming comprised of flash games or simple MUD's where these activities were created by someone and didn't cost anything to play aside from the cost of connecting to the internet is when money didn't matter.
Wrong. The goal of ANY business venture is to make money, even if a 5 y.o.'s lemonade stand.


Quote:
Originally Posted by luxandra View Post
Online gaming is now a business and because it is a business, MAKING money is the principle motivator for making games such as these. I have been around these forums forever and finally decided to post here instead of starting a chat war in game. I have spent time on this game for a very long time, and I see all the changes and improvements and some destruction of good things in this game. I have also witnessed it many times over spanning dozens of games. You keep making assumptions about me thinking that it justifies this argument. People naturally disagree, but what has been done mechanically in the game has not segregated the community in terms of what people get. The only thing that has changed with this is that LTS all get the same rewards regardless of time subscribed. Great I'm thrilled for that. Getting upset about any one particular thing regarding it however unless you are a monthly subscriber or a F2P account is really a moot point because all of the LTS are now officially on the same page reward wise. Which is the way it should be since we all put forth a sizeable amount of money to get it in the first place because we enjoy the game enough to do so. Arguing the semantic that someone payed earlier than someone else is as I stated many times already. An entitlement issue and an ego problem nothing more.
Do not lecture me on economics, you are most certainly not qualified. A business making money is very important but business ethics are as well. A business can be judged by how it treats its customers. Treat your customers well and the money will roll in. It a basic principle that every student is taught.

Quote:
Originally Posted by macronius View Post
This! Their ability to outdo their own failures is quite impressive. If only this power could be harnessed for good.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 315
# 496
10-11-2012, 03:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by luxandra View Post
...Without direct statistical information from the owners however, we cannot establish what kind of percentage that actually is. So no, it's not irrelevant when the figures cannot be directly accessed by us.
Actually, it is irrelevant. As you said here, we have no factual information for the owner and we have no access to the figures. All you can do is speculate, which is what you've done here, so weylandjuarez's original point still stands. Also, his argument appears to be supported by the majority of analysis done by the community and comments from Cryptic.
Kobayashi Maru
Join Date: Sept 2008


"Holographic tissue paper for the holographic runny nose. Don't give them to patients." - The Doctor
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,020
# 497
10-11-2012, 03:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by luxandra View Post
It's not irrelevant, it is a measure of fact that each month there is an unconfirmed amount of store points that are given out to all the various qualifying accounts.
It's completely irrelevant.

Why? Because opening a box requires a key. Keys come from the store, bought with Zen. Zen comes from outside the game. Either, purchased, granted via those survey offers or gifted as a stipend.

If Zen is purchased PWE makes money. If Zen comes from a survey offer PWE makes money. If it's a stipend then either an LTS or a subscription fee has been paid which may (or may not) make PWE money.

But if you seriously think there's so many old-time LTS players in here making up the bulk of the Zen on the Dilithium Exchange then you're on crack. Cryptic has been hiring, they're working on Neverwinter - there's more money flowing into that company than ever before (which is good - I'm pleased for them) - and it's coming from lockboxes - not from lifetime subscriptions - and it never will - instant veteran rewards or not.

It's a cheap, sloppily-executed cash-grab - not the brilliant business strategy you seem to think it is.

Are you sure you're not a PWE schill??
Please join our peaceful protest to help make STO a better game
Proudly not contributing to PWE's bottom-line since October 2012
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 90
# 498
10-11-2012, 03:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by weylandjuarez View Post
And putting my money where my mouth is (so to speak)...

This is what they should've done IMO:

1) Formally announce the end of the veteran rewards at 1000 days.

2) Announce that all Gold subscribers would get complimentary LTS status on reaching 1000 days.

3) Offer discounts on LTS to Gold subscribers based on the length of time they'd subscribed for.

4) Retired monthly subscriptions leaving F2P or LTS as the only options.

5) Allowed Silver players to use their accumulated play-time towards vet rewards should they purchase a LTS.

6) Started putting certain veteran rewards into the Lobi store - 1 new one every couple of months or so.

7) Reduce the Zen price on certain necessary perks (respecs).

8) Ultimately (within 6-12 months) phase out the LTS (to new purchasers) altogether - giving the players plenty of notice that it's happening (leaving themselves the option of reintroducing it for short periods of time).

9) If they wanted to be really nice to LTS players they could've given them a Lobi stipend too (say 10 Lobi per month).

That's just one way of doing it - doubtless there's many other people could think of.
While I can understand your desire to see something like this happen. Under the way American online gaming is, this is something that you wouldn't see because it would sap a huge amount of potential profit from PWE and CBS. The real issue ironically has nothing to do with this situation at all. It has to do with the incredibly timed fluke that was the release of World of ********, prior to WoW the online gaming industry was something that had picked up momentum thanks to SOE's production of Everquest. But unfortunately, Blizzard came along with WoW and because it was a completely revamped an overhauled and over tuned version of EQ many previous EQ players myself included got caught up in it.

However because of the overall lack of any kind of competition to WoW for well over 3 years from the launch to mid Burning Crusade expansion, the gaming industry looked at the immense success just one game had. This also painted an unrealistic idea about online gaming where a P2P platform could make the amount of money that WoW did. This is unfortunately as far as I am concerned not the case, because of P2P platform requires a consistent obligation to play a game. Now what happens when the game doesn't deliver something a player wants? They leave and don't come back because in order to see the changes that might interest them they would have to reinvest money only to risk seeing nothing they like all over again. Most people don't want to do that in the first place.

Now online gaming has had to adapt to the fact that people would rather purchase a game and have no further obligations to pay money unless there was something offered in game that they would want. Hence the micro transaction system. Now frankly I think Guild Wars 2 has done their game right, a one time purchase and free to play afterwards. That's the way it should be as far as I am concerned you would get a higher percentage of people willing to play I'd imagine and stick with it since they bought the game. But that's personal opinion. Getting back on track however, the success of WoW directly ties into why there are so many different games with all these types of financial "perks".

If I were to hazard a guess I would say that the majority of the gaming industry is trying to find that healthy balance where they can invest a good amount of money to a development team to make and a game that people will enjoy and still be able to make a profit off of it while keeping their customer base. This move for the LTS while questionable I still think is quite possibly one of the better decisions they have made for a long road ahead style of thinking for additional players which would lead to more content which in turn would lead to more quality. What I would prefer to see to a no obligation purchase of the game everyone has the same rewards get rid of LTS all together and simply make the future platform of this game similar to GW2. Buy the game, play it for free for life. THAT's the way this game should be as far as I am concerned. It would also stop the constant issues of the current "reward system". So yes, I will agree with you partially on this, I don;t agree with the implementation for this game currently. At least, not until an actual thought out plan has been made. Right now it's a split decision to make money, this is what I saw it as. It has not caused anyone to lose anything only given an additional perk to purchase a LTS. Overall, if it works we'll at least see more money that should return more stuff we can hopefully look forward to in terms of changes balancing and content. I can't stress enough however that noone has been shafted by this aside from non LTS and monthly subs who are not at the 1000 mark.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 90
# 499
10-11-2012, 03:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rickeyredshirt View Post
*derp* really? *derp*




Wrong. The goal of ANY business venture is to make money, even if a 5 y.o.'s lemonade stand.

MUD's didn't make money, your comment is disregarded.



Do not lecture me on economics, you are most certainly not qualified. A business making money is very important but business ethics are as well. A business can be judged by how it treats its customers. Treat your customers well and the money will roll in. It a basic principle that every student is taught.

What you think has happened and what actually has happened are not the same thing. I'm not saying that people aren't feeling cheated, I'm telling them that they have not been cheated. I understand why they feel that way, but the facts remain. None of the "veteran" players who paid the 1000 days have been cheated. That is a fact period. Personal feeling do not change this fact whether you want them to or not.
The great irony about this with you right now is that you seem to feel like I have attacked you.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 90
# 500
10-11-2012, 03:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kobayashlmaru View Post
Actually, it is irrelevant. As you said here, we have no factual information for the owner and we have no access to the figures. All you can do is speculate, which is what you've done here, so weylandjuarez's original point still stands. Also, his argument appears to be supported by the majority of analysis done by the community and comments from Cryptic.
His point is no more or less valid than mine. You cannot disregard one side of this without the other because none of us have the statistical figures to prove otherwise. So no, my point is not irrelevant.
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