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Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 735
# 21
10-12-2012, 01:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sophlogimo View Post
Make Acetone Field an AOE ability with a 5 km radius, that is not easily cleared and that (this is important!) applies a damage-debuff to the victim vs. all targets except the originating vessel. If the originating vessel is destroyed, the effect ends. The damage debuff could be lower than it is now, and the damaging effect of AF could be removed (it is easily ignored anyway).
hmm... not bad... It might be better if it was a -XX to healing? Like -50 to shield emitters. A healing reduction is more needed than a damage reduction anyway, and it should be easier to implement as it affects all members of one faction. And the person applying it should ofc have a big sign over his head saying "i'm doing this!"
Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 366
# 22
10-12-2012, 02:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dassemsto View Post
hmm... not bad... It might be better if it was a -XX to healing? Like -50 to shield emitters. A healing reduction is more needed than a damage reduction anyway, and it should be easier to implement as it affects all members of one faction. And the person applying it should ofc have a big sign over his head saying "i'm doing this!"

Oh, this is good idea. It would make tank builds viable in PvP because there will be reason to attack the tank if it was seriously screwing up with healing/damage of enemy team. Not to mention that it would made eng/cruisers more viable/effective/desired? in the game.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 735
# 23
10-12-2012, 02:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zarathos1978 View Post
Oh, this is good idea. It would make tank builds viable in PvP because there will be reason to attack the tank if it was seriously screwing up with healing/damage of enemy team. Not to mention that it would made eng/cruisers more viable/effective/desired? in the game.
And, to thicken the plot. This ability should have 45 second duration and 1 minute CD. giving it a 3/4 total uptime. It should also reduce the users weapons power by 50-75!

Now that's opportunity cost for you! A self-balancing ability, where you gain one advantage at the cost of another. This way, it could have almost full uptime without screwing with balance too much
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,001
# 24
10-12-2012, 02:39 AM
There are many possible abilities along this line of thought - powers that just scream "attack me" would make tanks viable in PvP. Their effect could be accompanied with a boost to Threat Control, so that PvE will also have a use for such powers, and the AI won't have too much trouble with them.

Many ways to make tanking viable in PvP.

That is, if the devs want engineer/cruiser combinations to be viable in PvP as tanks. The question remains, is that the case?
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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 245
# 25
10-12-2012, 02:53 AM
Adding ""hard"" Taunts to pvp would be really bad then you make it really silly imo. Sure your aoe field sounds like a better change to the environment. I don't think people fully appreciate the damage output from the cruiser when used properly tho it can reach the same sort of ballpark numbers as an escort, but they are different obviously in the way the damage is applied.

I dont think its a good idea to make cruisers "do more damage" in relation to for example escorts because then we are back to S3 when it was all cruisers and the fact is that the all cruiser team i still viable when it comes to high-end pvp but obviously you and general population would like the cruiser to be the "best" pvp ship for pugging.

Fact is the excelsior can me made to work with burst too or could when beam overload wasn't gimped we had Linty running cruiser for abit in the excelsior with beam overload2-3 and used it with a single DBB and then he could switch back to broadsiding/healing when needed.
Noone.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 12,194
# 26
10-12-2012, 03:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sophlogimo View Post
And I think that is what should be addressed. You can have tanks in PvP, given the right set of powers. They are just missing from STO yet.
It's difficult for me - to acknowledge the Tank role in PvP. By saying that you're going to modify/add abilities that scream "Target Me!" - well, that's kind of what's happened with them being the Healer. The Healer screams...target me...so that's already there.

When I think of target priority, I think of the following:

Healer - whether Eng or Sci
Buffer/Debuffer - Sci
DPS - whether Tac, Sci, or Eng
The guy trying to Tank.

To me, a Tank is the biggest threat - it ignores all logic. The mob targets the Tank, ignoring the actual threat of the DPS while the Healer keeps the Tank alive. The way the Tank works in most games...is...mentally deficient, to be kind.

That being said though, I think there's room to put Eng in that second level if they're not the Healer. I think that would also tie into the support aspect of the Cruiser. It wouldn't be as the Tank - but it would provide options to Engineers or those flying Cruisers.

To an extent, part of that comes from looking at what an Eng does on the Ground compared to in Space. Look at the abilities...

Space: 4 Emergency Power, 3 Aux, Boarding Party*, Engineering Team, DEM, 2 Shield, and the Wet Plasma Fart.../cough.

Ground: Mines, Repairs, Shields Galore, Debuffs, Pets...

Could you imagine Space versions of the Engineer Ground BOFF abilities? Tada, you've got that second level target. Make it so certain of those abilities are only available from the Cruiser (something as simple as size or power needed to pull that stuff off)...and tada again.

Both Tac and Sci... you can (well, I can - and not a "YOU" you, just a general you) see how there is a concept there with both Ground and Space. With Eng? Er...well...er...no. I think it's broken there. It did not translate well in the least.

If the Eng Space was like the Eng Ground, in the way one can see it for Tac/Sci - I believe that would fit that "support" side.

We'd have:

Heals - Eng/Sci (Cruiser/Sci/Carrier)
Support - Eng/Sci (Cruiser/Sci/Carrier)
DPS - Tac

...and I think we'd be off to a good start.

Sadly, unfortunately, and all that jazz though - I don't see that happening. Why? Because it's kind of easy to see where all the Engineering "abilities" ended up. Just look at the Zen Store ships, the Lockbox ships, and the Lobi ships. Tada...there's all the missing Engineering stuff...meh.

* I'm still trying to figure out why this isn't a Tac ability. That's not the only one of those that feels out of place.
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,001
# 27
10-12-2012, 04:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
It's difficult for me - to acknowledge the Tank role in PvP. By saying that you're going to modify/add abilities that scream "Target Me!" - well, that's kind of what's happened with them being the Healer. The Healer screams...target me...so that's already there.
The question remains to be answered if that is actually the intended role of the Engineer cruiser. Description and available powers indicate otherwise.

Quote:
To me, a Tank is the biggest threat - it ignores all logic.
The Acetone Field example I gave should make immediately clear how this can work without giving engineers significantly more direct damage potential.

Quote:
To an extent, part of that comes from looking at what an Eng does on the Ground compared to in Space. Look at the abilities...

Space: 4 Emergency Power, 3 Aux, Boarding Party*, Engineering Team, DEM, 2 Shield, and the Wet Plasma Fart.../cough.

Ground: Mines, Repairs, Shields Galore, Debuffs, Pets...

Could you imagine Space versions of the Engineer Ground BOFF abilities? Tada, you've got that second level target. Make it so certain of those abilities are only available from the Cruiser (something as simple as size or power needed to pull that stuff off)...and tada again.

Both Tac and Sci... you can (well, I can - and not a "YOU" you, just a general you) see how there is a concept there with both Ground and Space. With Eng? Er...well...er...no. I think it's broken there. It did not translate well in the least.

If the Eng Space was like the Eng Ground, in the way one can see it for Tac/Sci - I believe that would fit that "support" side.

We'd have:

Heals - Eng/Sci (Cruiser/Sci/Carrier)
Support - Eng/Sci (Cruiser/Sci/Carrier)
DPS - Tac

...and I think we'd be off to a good start.

Sadly, unfortunately, and all that jazz though - I don't see that happening. Why? Because it's kind of easy to see where all the Engineering "abilities" ended up. Just look at the Zen Store ships, the Lockbox ships, and the Lobi ships. Tada...there's all the missing Engineering stuff...meh.
I like this observation. So all that would need to be done is look at the Engineering boff abilities in space and make them more like their ground counterparts. Mines, turrets, fighters...

These are the ground boff abilities:

Chroniton Mine Barrier
Quick Fix
Shield Recharge
Weapons Malfunction
Reroute Power to Shields
Shield Generator Fabrication
Turret Fabrication
Cover Shield
Equipment Diagnostics
Medical Generator
Quantum Mortar Fabrication
Combat Supply
Fuse Armor
Support Drone Fabrication

I can easily imagine space versions of these.




Quote:
[About Boarding Party]
* I'm still trying to figure out why this isn't a Tac ability. That's not the only one of those that feels out of place.
I have always wondered that myself. The personnel used on those shuttles are definitely redshirts, after all. Or more seriously, their job is such that it is closest to the ship's security department.
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Promote what you love, instead of bashing what you hate.

Last edited by sophlogimo; 10-12-2012 at 04:16 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,395
# 28
10-12-2012, 04:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
Sadly, unfortunately, and all that jazz though - I don't see that happening. Why? Because it's kind of easy to see where all the Engineering "abilities" ended up. Just look at the Zen Store ships, the Lockbox ships, and the Lobi ships. Tada...there's all the missing Engineering stuff...meh.
This is a really good point (among others that you've made very well in this thread).
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,757
# 29
10-12-2012, 05:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dassemsto View Post
To make a cruiser the tank, people would have to target it. It has supreme survivability, so for it to be worth targeting, it would have to represent an equally big threath.

This means, it would have to do a lot more damage than an escort, OR a lot more CC than a sciship. Wich would in turn render escorts or sciships useless... :/
The danger of a Cruiser is his durability. If built well a cruiser can saddle up next to his target, lock them down with TB or somesuch, Turtle up a bit for protection and start firing at his target without to much worry about dying right away.
This makes the Cruiser a threat, its durability is longer than a escort.
This also the Cruisers liability if it can't kill its target quick enough, though that is not always needed on a team where the cruiser can merely weaken the target for the escorts to finish off.
SO the Cruiser does not need to be a lot more damaging then an escort or have more CC than as cience to be a threat, they just need to be played to thier strengths over thier weaknesses based on thier Player Toon class and build design.
Roy Hatch (stryker) soldier, friend, and good man.
1945-2014
RIP
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 735
# 30
10-12-2012, 05:36 AM
I still like the thought that the presence of one ship running a specific AoE ability that is somehow influencing the passives of all enemies in range.

A reduction of damage to the other team? I think not. Tanks are more than tanky enough already.

The point is, it should be an AoE ability that is by itself not doing any harm, but is sabotaging the efforts of every enemy near it to the extent where taking down the tank first may be the best path to go for them.
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