Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,094
# 51
10-14-2012, 03:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shimmerless View Post
The game doesn't run on SQL, for some reason the devs had issues with their SQL package so they upped and wrote their own database language (no, I'm not kidding).
Interesting claim. Source for that?

But even if that is the case, they will have some kind of means to query the database.
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Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 609
# 52
10-14-2012, 04:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
It's no fun for a player that has worked hard to unlock a certain power or effect, to be told they cannot use it in a certain circumstance. It's a more user-friendly option to tune such effects such that turning them off is never a necessity.
Logic Fallacy, it is also no fun to unlock a power and have it completely useless due to OTHER skills being unbalanced.

The best games with the best PvPs know that two sets of calculations for skills is better than one ;3 I'd even like to see a 3rd set of calculations for Team PvP.

| Join Date: January 2009 | Computer | Fleet: Broken Wings |
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,094
# 53
10-14-2012, 10:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mewi View Post
Logic Fallacy, it is also no fun to unlock a power and have it completely useless due to OTHER skills being unbalanced.
I am pretty sure that is not what they are trying to do.

Quote:

The best games with the best PvPs know that two sets of calculations for skills is better than one ;3 I'd even like to see a 3rd set of calculations for Team PvP.
I'd rather want everything to work the same whenever I play the game, regardless of whether I do PvE or PvP. Really. That whole idea of putting 2 games into one freaks me out.
The two elements of the game are already too different. If anything, make them more similar.
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Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,068
# 54
10-14-2012, 10:35 PM
....................

Sprinkles?

Sprinkles is that you?

.....................
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 230
# 55
10-15-2012, 12:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sophlogimo View Post
Remember, though, that you are only collecting from a very small subset of the player base.
I believe my data is not as bad as you suspect. In fact I'm beginning to see why cryptic doesn't seem to care about balance and doesn't take our talk of excessive healing and pet spam serious: it's simply not visible in the averaged data.

Maybe I'm still looking at the wrong things to detect these issues, but I'm fairly certain that there is a huge gap between matches with equally matched sides (the ones we remember the most clearly and which show us the decline of pvp balance) and the average pug matches where a single good player can turn the tide because the average player has vastly less damage or healing than us few dedicated pvpers.

These average matches with short time-per-kill values (~40s per kill) tend to completely drown out the increasingly excessive extremes with >5-minutes-per-kill and massive pet spam that have occured more frequently during the last year and led to our perception of declining pvp balance.

To see what we see, the devs would have to play some high-level pvp instead of just analysing average data or dabbling in pug matches.

Maybe there is a way to extract these extreme cases by filtering for matches with >x minutes total duration, but I will have to adjust my data compiling tools to do that. Currently I only have totals per logfile which allow for calculation of average values on a weekly or monthly basis. But I think it might be possible to parse the logs differently to get true per-match data. (Well, theoretically this is possible with the tools I already have, but it would probably take dozens of hours to just compile the raw data since I would need to do a lot of things by hand. I need to write a tool to let the computer do this automatically.)

Last edited by fakehilbert; 10-15-2012 at 01:08 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,294
# 56
10-15-2012, 04:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fakehilbert View Post
I believe my data is not as bad as you suspect. In fact I'm beginning to see why cryptic doesn't seem to care about balance and doesn't take our talk of excessive healing and pet spam serious: it's simply not visible in the averaged data.

Maybe I'm still looking at the wrong things to detect these issues, but I'm fairly certain that there is a huge gap between matches with equally matched sides (the ones we remember the most clearly and which show us the decline of pvp balance) and the average pug matches where a single good player can turn the tide because the average player has vastly less damage or healing than us few dedicated pvpers.

These average matches with short time-per-kill values (~40s per kill) tend to completely drown out the increasingly excessive extremes with >5-minutes-per-kill and massive pet spam that have occured more frequently during the last year and led to our perception of declining pvp balance.

To see what we see, the devs would have to play some high-level pvp instead of just analysing average data or dabbling in pug matches.

Maybe there is a way to extract these extreme cases by filtering for matches with >x minutes total duration, but I will have to adjust my data compiling tools to do that. Currently I only have totals per logfile which allow for calculation of average values on a weekly or monthly basis. But I think it might be possible to parse the logs differently to get true per-match data. (Well, theoretically this is possible with the tools I already have, but it would probably take dozens of hours to just compile the raw data since I would need to do a lot of things by hand. I need to write a tool to let the computer do this automatically.)
Keep it up buddy. Talk to you later on vent about help if you need.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,094
# 57
10-15-2012, 04:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fakehilbert View Post
I believe my data is not as bad as you suspect. In fact I'm beginning to see why cryptic doesn't seem to care about balance and doesn't take our talk of excessive healing and pet spam serious: it's simply not visible in the averaged data.
That sounds pretty reasonable (but it is still just a hypothesis).

Quote:
[...]
To see what we see, the devs would have to play some high-level pvp instead of just analysing average data or dabbling in pug matches.

Maybe there is a way to extract these extreme cases by filtering for matches with >x minutes total duration, but I will have to adjust my data compiling tools to do that. Currently I only have totals per logfile which allow for calculation of average values on a weekly or monthly basis. But I think it might be possible to parse the logs differently to get true per-match data. (Well, theoretically this is possible with the tools I already have, but it would probably take dozens of hours to just compile the raw data since I would need to do a lot of things by hand. I need to write a tool to let the computer do this automatically.)
Looking forward to the results!
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Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 597
# 58
10-15-2012, 10:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by marc8219 View Post
So what? This just shows the BFI Doff are working as intended.

Its the 3pc borg set that still is the main problem, and mutliple extend shields and RSP, not BFI Doff.

Balance the borg set, make it require 4pc bonus to get either the hull or shield heal procs, leave the Doff alone.

Nerf the DOff and you will just force more people to use 3 pc borg.
3 sdo and 3 pc borg is the standard. thoes doffs need to be set to 1. aux should not boost the heal either.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 609
# 59
10-15-2012, 11:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sophlogimo View Post
I am pretty sure that is not what they are trying to do.
I'm pretty sure I just quoted the exact text of what a dev just said. And I'm pretty sure that is what they are trying to do. It is obvious, when you place the facts behind it, they state "We want everyone to have fun with x y z skill and we don't want to hinder x y z skill for the sake of PvP" yet hinder MANY skills based on the fact that they are trying to keep PvE balance intact. Hence logic fallacy, hence that is what they are maintaining, a massive logic fallacy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sophlogimo View Post
I'd rather want everything to work the same whenever I play the game, regardless of whether I do PvE or PvP. Really. That whole idea of putting 2 games into one freaks me out.
The two elements of the game are already too different. If anything, make them more similar.
the game mechanics cannot support balance on both ends, the game mechanics need to have separate calculations in order to ever hope to have true game balance.

"It freaks me out" it isn't that scary, or difficult to comprehend, as long as cryptic is open about the differences between the calculations then it is EASY to figure out.

The changes aren't being proposed like "In PvE this does an explosion, and in PvP this does a Beam." The underlining mechanic is the same, only the damage balance is different, or heal balance, yadda yadda.

... if that freaks you out, then I'm sure there are some single player games you could be playing ....

| Join Date: January 2009 | Computer | Fleet: Broken Wings |
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 879
# 60
10-15-2012, 11:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mewi View Post
[color=orchid]
[color=orchid]the game mechanics cannot support balance on both ends, the game mechanics need to have separate calculations in order to ever hope to have true game balance.
Technically you can't break balance for something as retardedly easy as PvE (with the exception of NWS)
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