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Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,400
# 21
10-15-2012, 09:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shookyang View Post
I don't have any problems with not slotting the 3rd ensign power. Even without it, a properly configured Tactical Escort Retrofit can handle itself pretty well.
You might not have any problems with it, but the very fact that some people don't actually slot anything there because there is nothing to slot - is in fact a problem with BOFF powers and BOFF layouts.

One or the other needs to change.




Quote:
Originally Posted by partizan81 View Post
Completely agree with what others have said: put a TT1 in there, that's almost certainly what it was built for. Put a TT1 into one of the other two Tac slots

There are 3 tactical ensign slots to fill.


For the rest, please re-read the OP as it's already covered.


Last edited by ussultimatum; 10-15-2012 at 09:33 AM.
Ensign
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 25
# 22
10-15-2012, 09:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post
You might not have any problems with it, but the very fact that some people don't actually slot anything there because there is nothing to slot - is in fact a problem with BOFF powers and BOFF layouts.

One or the other needs to change.


No, it really doesnt need to change. Its one ship of many, and this one has this configuration. If you use a torpedo, its a good configuration... actuatlly a great one. If you don't, there are other ships available of the same quality. The player makes the choice to use the ship and then not slot anything in the ensign slot.

Cryptic is not obligated to make every possible build work on every ship.

If there was a ship that noone had a problem with from a slot/console perspective, then everyone would have a problem with it being OP. And in fact it would be. The Defiant's downside is that its squishy. A universal ensign would make it less so.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,400
# 23
10-15-2012, 10:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nuclearwessle View Post
Its one ship of many, and this one has this configuration.
The Armitage & MVAE also suffer from having a third tactical ensign slot.

At the least, they gain a use Ltc Eng or Sci power in return for the trade off.

The Fleet MVAE, even gets 5 tactical consoles.



Quote:
Originally Posted by nuclearwessle View Post
If you use a torpedo, its a good configuration... actuatlly a great one.
It's not that great.

The only thing that Torpedos are currently good for are dealing with Fodder ships.

This tends to drop your average DPS off by quite a bit (using Elite STFs as an example you can go from 6k DPS to 8-10k DPS by running all DHCs/Turrets).


Those same fodder ships can be destroyed with just cannon fire, maybe it takes 1 or 2s more - or maybe it doesn't.

A 4x DHC + 3x Turret build Escort can easily do the menial tasks in Elite STFs like Guard Kang solo or take both sides of KASE probes out.





Quote:
Originally Posted by nuclearwessle View Post
Cryptic is...
Cryptic from what I've seen actively does pursue an agenda of trying to make all (or as many as possible) choices valid.

And the simple truth is that no one good player actively chooses a third tactical ensign when an Engineering or Science ensign power is available.

That's because 2 of those choices are drastically superior to the other one.

The same goes for 3rd Eng slots on cruisers like the Galaxy-R. This is part of why it's dubbed 'Failaxy'.


The rest of your post was just a rant on "why things should never be considered for balance passes".


Which is a terrible premise.

Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,123
# 24
10-15-2012, 10:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post
You might not have any problems with it, but the very fact that some people don't actually slot anything there because there is nothing to slot - is in fact a problem with BOFF powers and BOFF layouts.

One or the other needs to change.
Not every person flies an all cannon build, though. For those who do not, the lay out is fine.

Building the ship around the idea that it's going to be all cannons doesn't give the ship a lot of flexibility.

The Tactical Escort Retrofit (and, by extension, the Fleet Tactical Escort Retrofit) can cloak and give it an extra +15% to its alpha strike. Now, the Fleet Tactical Escort Retrofit gets a 5th tactical console slot.

Giving it either ship an ensign level ability other than tactical would make this ship too powerful (extra shield/hull heals and resistances, debuffs, etc.). There's not going to be any balance (with the high turn rate, 5th console, etc) and everyone will be flying this ship rather than anything else.

That's going to cut down on variety and team work. Why would you need a carrier or sci, when you can debuff or heal yourself with the extra sci/eng ability?

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't mind if they changed the BOFF to something else other than tactical. But, I still think the Tactical Escort Retrofit and the Fleet Tactical Escort Retrofit are worth it as it is. Even if I don't use that 3rd tactical ensign ability.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 61
# 25
10-15-2012, 10:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by partizan81 View Post
Completely agree with what others have said: put a TT1 in there, that's almost certainly what it was built for. Put a TT1 into one of the other two Tac slots, and you'll be able to handle a fair bit more incoming damage on a facing-shield because you'll constantly be daisy-chaining your TTs.

With that said, I have a fleet Defiant on my tac, and I stopped using it, constantly was grabbing aggro and that's bad business in a glass cannon.
Your commander and lieutenant commander should already have TT1slotted. This leaves you with a third ensign slot. Another TT1 is completely useless there. As far as DBB's go; they chew on power, beam overload destroys your weapons power level. DBB shouldn't be fired at the same time as cannons and vice versa. Since one key fires all energy weapons, you would be forced to bind cannons to one key and your DBB to another. See Hilbert's guide for instructions. If another cannon power or attack power existed for an ensign boff it would share cooldowns with powers that should already be slotted. The only logical thing to put there is a torpedo and that's situational. A universal slot would offer more survivability for the Defiant and bring it more in line with the bug.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,123
# 26
10-15-2012, 10:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post
A 4x DHC + 3x Turret build Escort can easily do the menial tasks in Elite STFs like Guard Kang solo or take both sides of KASE probes out.
Menial tasks? Forget that...you can solo cubes in Infected and KA elites. Even more so if you stay below or above the cube, so it can't fire it's heavy torpedo.

In Cure, the probes get taken out pretty quickly too.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 159
# 27
10-15-2012, 10:12 AM
I dont pvp so i cant comment on that. I always rock a torpedo in front.

I am looking forward to getting this.

This is like a nuker or "mage" from other mmo's. Does huge spike dmg but if you get hate ur dead. The game needs more of this. Everyone seems to want everyship to be able to do everthing.

Put a torp spread in the spot and time with cannon scatter volley to get as many hall hits as you can.

If you want an all cannon ship then yes this waste. But there are othe options for that.

However a universal is too much. They shouldve released it with out that boff spot at all. Just done 4 boff spots like the BoP.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,400
# 28
10-15-2012, 10:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shookyang View Post
Not every person flies an all cannon build, though. For those who do not, the lay out is fine.
For those who do not, they consider it fine but it tends to under-perform.

That's why people like yourself don't slot anything there at all.


Quote:
Originally Posted by shookyang View Post
Giving it either ship an ensign level ability other than tactical would make this ship too powerful (extra shield/hull heals and resistances, debuffs, etc.). There's not going to be any balance (with the high turn rate, 5th console, etc) and everyone will be flying this ship rather than anything else.
Ultimately my complaint is one we've seen before, lack of variety or useful things to slot at the ensign level.


I also think people generally over-estimate the impact of a single tactical console slot.

I've got both the JHAS (5 slots) and the standard Patrol Escort (4 slots) and the two are generally neck and neck with DPS output.

Ensign
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 25
# 29
10-15-2012, 10:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post

The rest of your post was just a rant on "why things should never be considered for balance passes".


Which is a terrible premise.
it would be a terrible premise if that was my premise. But its not. You oversimplified and responded to the oversimplification, which I recognize is an easy and reliable way to "win the internet" But im really not interested in winning. In fact I find value in most, if not all of your response, and dont particularly disagree with most of it.

What I meant was not that "things are fine. All thing. All the time. Change is bad and messes things up." Many many things in this game need a balance pass. Like most of Science. But "balance pass", and "eliminating drawbacks" are two different things. My Bortasqu makes a great all-cannon build too... if only Cryptic could see fit to eliminate the clearly erroneous turn rate so the ship could function like other escorts.....

In other words, to get something (Cloak and turn rate), the Defiant has to give something (less appealing Boff Slots and hull). Changing that is not a balance pass, its an imbalance pass.

My job is great because I get paid, if only my employer would give it a balance pass so I wouldnt really have to work.


At any rate, the question is fundamentally this... Is the Defiant a worse ship than other escorts, and if so is it because of the Boff layout? I dont think so, but I recognize that this is my opinion and nothing more.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 133
# 30
10-15-2012, 10:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post
There are 3 tactical ensign slots to fill.


For the rest, please re-read the OP as it's already covered.
Oh I understand, you're just focusing too much on filling that third slot with something un-useful. Use 2x TTs, and put a TS1 in the other. This is a standard build that many people use:

CMDR TAC: TS1, CSV1, TS3, APB3 (or APO3 if you prefer)
LTCMDR TAC: TT1, CSV1, APB2/APO1
ENS TAC: TT1

I prefer torps over beams, both because of the damage and the more forgiving weapons power.

edit: additionally, if you're not using torps, you should be. All cannons are nice DPS but your power levels can be problematic, and torps + supporting doffs can yield good results.

Last edited by partizan81; 10-15-2012 at 10:40 AM.
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