Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,109
# 41
10-16-2012, 12:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by starwrathforever View Post
It's a good thing but...in the future? Hopefully as soon as possible...I accept the Matt f2p logical reasoning, but Ghost is absolutely right...don't kill this beautiful game with more and more powerful toys penalizing the oldest and better players who don't want to spend too much money.
This is a tricky one. I'm sure that Cryptic don't want to penalise anyone and all things being equal they would not release any special ships with special powers, they would release a constant progression of ships in the Z store with subtle differences that allows those with the skill and understanding of the mechanics of the game to get the very best out of them. This for me would be the ideal scenario, however it won't make money.

If one of my fleet mates wants a PvP with me then I ask him what type of ship he's flying, I will then match his ship with something similar so that in the end the result is down to build and fighting skill. If he wants to see if he can beat me in my Bug for example that's fine too, he knows he will most likely lose but if he wins, even once, he's naturally delighted and it shows me he has real promise and some talent as a ship builder and pilot.

I seldom take my bug to Kerrat for example as it's just too easy to keep wiping the floor with people in non-lockbox ships, I use it mostly on STFs and fleet events to finish them quickly and because it's massive fun to fly.

Counters may be released soon either in the form of another science console set on the lobi store or perhaps a new BOFF power or DOFF ability, Jeremy will work something out as he mentioned in this thread, however inbalance is still the reason the game works, to have one up on your neighbour, it's human nature and companies will always play to that and use it to their advantage financially. I'm fine with that if it keeps the game afloat. Nothing they have released is so godlike that it is unstoppable, a Lobi IWIN console, they have got the balance about right I feel in order to maintain interest and make a good return on their investment.
Community Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,004
# 42
10-16-2012, 01:10 PM
Since I'm having trouble figuring out who's just talking trash and who's actually taking it seriously...

A gentle reminder... No "Forum PvP", guys...

"Forum PvP" is not entertainment. Any post that's been crafted to provoke an angry reaction -- or looks like it was -- is considered trolling and is subject to moderation, warnings, and infractions.

Use good sense, a sense of humor, and when in doubt re-read the forum rules.

Leave off the insults and name-calling and we won't have to moderate the thread to death. If anyone is offended, they have the right to put in a ticket that will probably get the thread closed by CS with no explanation.

That'd be a shame, since this one clearly has Dev attention.

Thanx
Volunteer Community Moderator for the Star Trek Online forums -- My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. If you wish to speak to someone on the community team, file a "forums and website" support ticket here, as we are not able to respond to PMs regarding moderation inquiries.
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,173
# 43
10-16-2012, 02:00 PM
How is the Tackyokinetic Converter OP? How is the 2pc with bonus to Chrono Torps OP? How is the 3 pc bonus with a 5 Min cooldown OP? I don't get it.....

I swear, it seems many PvPers are at times the loudest and biggest complainers about anything in the game yet clearly represent the "Vocal Minority".

/srsly, this set is fine
//flame suit: Activated!
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,015
# 44
10-16-2012, 02:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by badname834854 View Post
How is the Tackyokinetic Converter OP? How is the 2pc with bonus to Chrono Torps OP? How is the 3 pc bonus with a 5 Min cooldown OP? I don't get it.....

I swear, it seems many PvPers are at times the loudest and biggest complainers about anything in the game yet clearly represent the "Vocal Minority".

/srsly, this set is fine
//flame suit: Activated!
First I will say that I don't have this set, although I do believe in the "everything should have a counter" idea.

I believe the specific gripe is that if you poop a mine pattern on somebody, then do the Freeze Dance, the mines will arm while they are "in timout" (a state previously thought to be harmless) and insta-gib them when they are let out of the penalty box.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 152
# 45
10-16-2012, 02:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by badname834854 View Post
How is the Tackyokinetic Converter OP? How is the 2pc with bonus to Chrono Torps OP? How is the 3 pc bonus with a 5 Min cooldown OP? I don't get it.....
Take a look back through the thread at what myself, Husanak, bwemo & Zyhpoid have posted. The 2-piece set bonus allows for instant kills with trico mines that are extremely difficult to avoid while frozen in time, in addition to locking out the enemy's primary hearer for seven seconds. That might not sound like a lot, but if I and a comparable escort are alpha-striking on an unbuffed (because they got hit by a fast-recharging SNB) target that isn't getting healed (because the healer(s) is/are locked out), they'll easily be dead within that time.

The temporal slow field is too powerful because of the magnitude of the debuff, and the fact that it (currently) cannot be cleared.
12th Fleet | Sad Pandas | Starfleet M.A.C.O.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 60
# 46
10-16-2012, 02:16 PM
Matt, sociologically i could not agree with you more. This isn't the real world though its a game. As such, it fits more into the category of dictatorship (this is not a jab at the devs, its a structural comparison). We have no real voice in the development of said game except what is given to us through the benevolence of our leaders (through the forums). As far as balance goes using another real world comparison, sports give a set of parameters by which the game is played and OP stuff is prohibited. Corked bats are not allowed in baseball, Paul Coffey sticks are not allowed in college hockey, and steroids aren't allowed in any sport. These items devalue their respective games and if they were allowed, would probably result in people abandoning those games. I like this game a lot and would like it to stick around. Contrary to the Communist comparison, I see the game as a free economy, which is another beauty of the game. You can earn everything from the C-store or Exchange from grinding, all except the "lotto" ships. And even if you buy keys off of the exchange there is no guarantee. For the most part, lockboxes aren't bad. They offer mostly variety and convenience which is a good thing. Doff packs help with starbase grinding, weapon combinations offer variety, and Mirror Ships, which are just existing ships with different boff layouts and a paint job, offer variety as well. To anyone with a modicum of knowledge of game mechanics the grand prize ships are OP. The consoles further this problem
Ensign
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 18
# 47
10-16-2012, 02:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by badname834854 View Post
I swear, it seems many PvPers are at times the loudest and biggest complainers about anything in the game yet clearly represent the "Vocal Minority".
This is because quite simply, PvE in this game even on the hardest difficulty setting is nothing more than facerolling keys to victory. Balance such as this does not become apparent in PvE. Name something in the game (PvE Mob wise) that subnuke actually matters on. The stadi in mirror event so you can get your dilithium 10 seconds faster maybe?

NPC's in this game do not cross heal like players. They do not use abilities intelligently either. A mogai using attack pattern alpha? Who cares it sits still for 10 seconds after use, then flies in the wrong direction. A mob with subnuke? Do you think it can intelligently time SNB right after you use an xxx team ability, or rsp, or epts at current? Hell I've seen mobs using nothing but beam/torp pop cannon rapid fire while leveling random toons. The mob doesn't even have cannons or turrets.

So much more thought goes into PvP than PvE in this game. Something you, as a PvE hero, view as a moderate boost do not realize what the set is really capable of because the abilities it augments -have no use- in pve. I can lock down a person with a near 90s subnuke, the latter half of the timer being unresistable/unclearable. In PvP this is a HUGE issue. In PvE...oh no the tac cube cant launch a high yield for 90s.

We cry for balance because we don't want PvP becoming the same as PvE. Where one side has a huge advantage vs the other to the point of utter face roll. If this style of game play suits you, stick to PvE.

Thank you Bort for acknowledging the issue with the lobi set.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,109
# 48
10-16-2012, 02:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bwemo View Post
We cry for balance because we don't want PvP becoming the same as PvE. Where one side has a huge advantage vs the other to the point of utter face roll. .
Exactly except that you have the ability to counter like with like. The NPCs do not, they are always going to be easy even on elite compared to a skilled human.

People cry because in order to compete they are going to have to spend a lot of money and fly a ship that they possibly do not want to fly. This is how the company makes money by taking advantage of the competitive nature of players. Afterall who buys the 30 million EC phaser relay off the exchange? It sure as hell aint PvEers.

If the aforementioned Mk XII relays were scrapped that would piss off a lot of dedicated DOFFers who spend a lot of time and effort running strange alien artefact missions hoping for the elusive drop. If the lobi ships or consoles were nerfed that would piss off a lot of people who spend a lot of money acquiring them and would cease any future efforts to acquire them knowing full well that they may be nerfed due to the screams of the vocal PvP crowd.

That was my point earlier that they will never be nerfed, the only solution for Cryptic is to introduce a counter to them which will not affect the PvE community but will affect the PvP community. However if said counter is too good it will again piss off those that have spent a lot trying to gain said advantage and this would be detrimental to the business model Cryptic have mastered. Cryptic are walking a fine line here and have to tread carefully, ultimately the majority will be catered for the most which means us PvPers will have to take it on the chin, adapt, live with it or fight like with like. I don't see how it can change.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,109
# 49
10-16-2012, 02:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by captainf00k View Post
Contrary to the Communist comparison, I see the game as a free economy.....
It is, that's what I was saying, the alternative would be a communist type regime where everyone had the same ships, weapons, abilities etc and the only difference would be your skill.
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 273
# 50
10-16-2012, 03:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattjohnsonva View Post
Exactly except that you have the ability to counter like with like.
Quote:
Originally Posted by David_Sirlin_Playing_to_Win
It's Too Good!?

Only in the most extreme, rare cases should something be banned because it is "too good." This will be the most common type of ban requested by players, and almost all of their requests will be foolish. Banning a tactic simply because it is "the best" isn't even warranted. That only reduces the game to all the "second best" tactics, which isn't necessarily any better of a game than the original game. In fact, it's often worse!

The only reasonable case to ban something because it is "too good" is when that tactic completely dominates the entire game, to the exclusion of other tactics. It is possible, though very rare, that removing an element of the game that is not only "the best" but also "ten times better than anything else in the game" results in a better game. I emphasize that is extremely rare. The most common case is that the player requesting the ban doesn't fully grasp that the game is, in fact, not all about that one tactic. He should win several tournaments using mainly this tactic to prove his point. Another, far rarer possibility is that he's right. The game really is shallow and centered on one thing (whether that one thing is a bug or by design is irrelevant). In that case, the best course of action is usually to abandon the game and play one of the hundreds of other readily available good games in the world.

Only in the ultra-rare case that the player is right and the game is worth saving and the game without the ultra-tactic is a ten times better game only then is the notion even worth fighting for. And even in this case, it may take time for the game to mature enough for a great percentage of the best players and tournament organizers to realize that tactic should, indeed, be banned. Before an official ban takes place, there can also be something called "soft ban."
~passage from Playing to Win by David Sirlin regarding whether or not a move, power, or ability needs to be banned or removed for the benefit of the game.

[EDIT]Fixed formatting errors in quoted passage.

Last edited by corsair114; 10-16-2012 at 03:37 PM.
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