Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,922
# 51
10-16-2012, 03:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by corsair114 View Post
~passage from Playing to Win by David Sirlin regarding whether or not a move, power, or ability needs to be banned or removed for the benefit of the game.

[EDIT]Fixed formatting errors in quoted passage.
Brilliantly put and spot on.


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Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 677
# 52
10-16-2012, 04:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dan512 View Post
Hate when people who dont even own something cry for nerfs. The abilities are good for a reason, how expensive they are to get with all the lobi's, dont go crying for nerf just because you cant get them or dont want to spend the money. My time ship is good, but to certain players in pvp i still get my ass handed to me if they decide to come after me. Sci ships have enough drawbacks to them, now if the wells had 4 front and rear weapons maybe then some complaining would be valid on its abilities, but it doesnt. Now you want to talk about nerfs, lets talk about tactical captains and the one hit wonders they can pull off
Dude, if he wanted to test it so badly and he didnt had the ship he wouldve granted access to my account and test it anyway.

We share everything in our fleet

<3 Panda love

Except for the Bamboo, that i dont share.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 797
# 53
10-16-2012, 04:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by badname834854 View Post
How is the Tackyokinetic Converter OP? How is the 2pc with bonus to Chrono Torps OP? How is the 3 pc bonus with a 5 Min cooldown OP? I don't get it.....

I swear, it seems many PvPers are at times the loudest and biggest complainers about anything in the game yet clearly represent the "Vocal Minority".

/srsly, this set is fine
//flame suit: Activated!
theyre refering to 2 different sets. the set that comes with the ships and the set that comes from the lobi store.

when you have both ships you can freeze people.

when you have all 3 of the lobi store you can speed up your recharge rates (while in time ships) for 20 seconds. so if you use SNB then speed up you will have a snb ready way sooner then it should.

a simple fix for that is to add it so it wont effect captain and console powers, only BO powers.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 152
# 54
10-16-2012, 04:26 PM
I have a very simple, direct, non-inflammatory question for corsair114, mattjohnsonva & dan512: Can you folks honestly claim to have a thorough understanding of how high-level pvp works in this game, extensive experience playing such, and therefore an appreciation of what factors have the ability to unbalance PvP in STO?

If so, please describe that experience and provide rational explanation for why the abilities under discussion have minimal potential to upset pvp balance.

This is not one fleet or one group of individuals crying foul; it's the united voice of many experienced pvp'ers. What I see is a lot of people who do not play pvp (and therefore, cannot understand it) saying that the concerns of many pvp fleets are all hogwash. If do not have experience with how pvp works in practice (which is *wildly* different from PvE), then I claim that you cannot provide an informed opinion on the subject.
12th Fleet | Sad Pandas | Starfleet M.A.C.O.
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 273
# 55
10-16-2012, 04:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by naldoran View Post
I have a very simple, direct, non-inflammatory question for corsair114, mattjohnsonva & dan512: Can you folks honestly claim to have a thorough understanding of how high-level pvp works in this game, extensive experience playing such, and therefore an appreciation of what factors have the ability to unbalance PvP in STO?

If so, please describe that experience and provide rational explanation for why the abilities under discussion have minimal potential to upset pvp balance.

This is not one fleet or one group of individuals crying foul; it's the united voice of many experienced pvp'ers. What I see is a lot of people who do not play pvp (and therefore, cannot understand it) saying that the concerns of many pvp fleets are all hogwash. If do not have experience with how pvp works in practice (which is *wildly* different from PvE), then I claim that you cannot provide an informed opinion on the subject.
I think there's plenty of evidence that the devices are overpowered. "The best way to beat them is to beat them with more of the same" amply illustrates that point. Frankly, when the best counter to doing something is to do it yourself, then that tactic needs to be examined and revamped or the game the needs to be dropped and a better PvP platform found.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David_Sirlin_PTW
The only reasonable case to ban something because it is ?too good? is when that tactic completely dominates the entire game, to the exclusion of other tactics. It is possible, though very rare, that removing an element of the game that is not only ?the best? but also ?ten times better than anything else in the game? results in a better game.
It seems clear to me that the existence of the abilities as outlined by you yourself, Naldoran, are very much in the category of "too good" as listed in this quote.

Last edited by corsair114; 10-16-2012 at 04:49 PM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,922
# 56
10-16-2012, 06:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by naldoran View Post
I have a very simple, direct, non-inflammatory question for corsair114, mattjohnsonva & dan512: Can you folks honestly claim to have a thorough understanding of how high-level pvp works in this game, extensive experience playing such, and therefore an appreciation of what factors have the ability to unbalance PvP in STO?

If so, please describe that experience and provide rational explanation for why the abilities under discussion have minimal potential to upset pvp balance.

This is not one fleet or one group of individuals crying foul; it's the united voice of many experienced pvp'ers. What I see is a lot of people who do not play pvp (and therefore, cannot understand it) saying that the concerns of many pvp fleets are all hogwash. If do not have experience with how pvp works in practice (which is *wildly* different from PvE), then I claim that you cannot provide an informed opinion on the subject.
I suggest you re-read what has been written naldoran, we are not disagreeing with you, I myself was trying, and failing it seems, to explain why they would not be nerfed.


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Banned
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 846
# 57
10-16-2012, 08:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattjohnsonva View Post
Ghosty you are missing my point chump (lol, got it in before you did).

I am not saying I agree with it I am saying why they won't be nerfed. The counter when it comes will be in another lockbox.

As it happens I don't need a lockbox ship to win my PvP games, I've been testing and refining builds for over 500 days, I am already a pretty good PvPer and win most my games with a standard ship, with one of my aforementioned ships I win almost every 1v1 I play. That again was not the point sonny.

As for starbases I run this fleet, I started it and have over 4 million Fleet Credits on the leaderboard so I know all about sinking money into this game. So your wild assumptions are just that laddo. Next time examine the logic of the argument rather than trying to make some febrile knee-jerk reactionary post that completely misses the finer nuances of what is going on here.
Actually it wasn't knee jerk. Seriously, you think I haven't had time to think of these things since the game went f2p? That I haven't noticed the ques systematically die more each time a new lock box is released after a couple of weeks?

Also, you did it wrong, it's Chump, Chump. The capital C makes all the difference

Lock Boxes Discourage people from playing the game and sinking time in. F2P games function in the Long Term on people sinking time into a game. Then they buy something to speed up the process at some point down the line. This? This game is just open your wallet and hope the power creep down the line doesn't kill you later.

Again, the kind of pay to win shenanigans the boxes represent are not sustainable in the long term. Either they will eventually stop getting sequentially more powerful, they'll break the game so irreparably no one will actually want to pvp anymore, or people will get tired of shelling out those hundreds of dollars. Either way is going to make a horrendous loss in long term growth.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 155
# 58
10-16-2012, 08:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by naldoran View Post
I have a very simple, direct, non-inflammatory question for corsair114, mattjohnsonva & dan512: Can you folks honestly claim to have a thorough understanding of how high-level pvp works in this game, extensive experience playing such, and therefore an appreciation of what factors have the ability to unbalance PvP in STO?

If so, please describe that experience and provide rational explanation for why the abilities under discussion have minimal potential to upset pvp balance.

This is not one fleet or one group of individuals crying foul; it's the united voice of many experienced pvp'ers. What I see is a lot of people who do not play pvp (and therefore, cannot understand it) saying that the concerns of many pvp fleets are all hogwash. If do not have experience with how pvp works in practice (which is *wildly* different from PvE), then I claim that you cannot provide an informed opinion on the subject.
First i dont have to tell you crap, but ill share. My fleet which im not even going to say its name used to be big on the pvp scene taking in ssr tourneys, we were even a run for Spanish inquisition, but many in the group got bored with pvp and we only fight eachother now because we get tired of the idiots having to exploit, use lag inducing items, and fleets that are just big a holes thinking their the best. We like to have fun. Ive played since closed beta, and play in kerrat, want to know my pvp credentials ask people in 1aq how experienced i am, their a friend fleet to mine.

Yes it is over powered, but everything has a counter if you look for it, my ship is over powered, but my fleet members have found a way to take me out, its a pain to pull off, but it works.


This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Perfect World Entertainment Community Rules
and Policies
. ~Bluegeek

Last edited by bluegeek; 10-17-2012 at 10:44 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,922
# 59
10-17-2012, 02:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ghostyandfrosty View Post
Actually it wasn't knee jerk. Seriously, you think I haven't had time to think of these things since the game went f2p? That I haven't noticed the ques systematically die more each time a new lock box is released after a couple of weeks?

Also, you did it wrong, it's Chump, Chump. The capital C makes all the difference

Lock Boxes Discourage people from playing the game and sinking time in. F2P games function in the Long Term on people sinking time into a game. Then they buy something to speed up the process at some point down the line. This? This game is just open your wallet and hope the power creep down the line doesn't kill you later.

Again, the kind of pay to win shenanigans the boxes represent are not sustainable in the long term. Either they will eventually stop getting sequentially more powerful, they'll break the game so irreparably no one will actually want to pvp anymore, or people will get tired of shelling out those hundreds of dollars. Either way is going to make a horrendous loss in long term growth.
Well Chump (actually loled at that) you may well be right, I'm certainly tired of shelling out hundreds of pounds (from the UK) and have now stopped spending for the moment. I think Cryptic recognise this too, there are plenty more desirable things they can put in lock boxes that wouldn't break the game, the recent changes to the LTS to make it a more appealing purchase etc. A successful business model is a dynamic one, it constantly is aware of the buying habits of it's core consumers and will attempt to correlate products that follow those trends. I think lockboxes are here to stay, however I believe the days of OP ships in them are drawing to a close for the time being at least.


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Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,922
# 60
10-17-2012, 02:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dan512 View Post
Ive played since closed beta, and play in kerrat, want to know my pvp credentials ask people in 1aq how experienced i am, their a friend fleet to mine.
I know Dan, what he says is the truth, we used to be in the same fleet so I'll vouch for him there, the fact we are both posting on this thread is just coincidence. Mind you he's dead easy to beat


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