Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 5,425
# 21
10-19-2012, 07:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by weylandjuarez View Post
So if I get this straight, reputation (which we earn from STFs, missions etc.) unlocks items which we can then buy with Dilithium?

Which means that any credit we get from our EDCs, Proto Tech etc. only gets converted to reputation? Which means even if we max out the reputation system we still have to pay for gear?

So basically you're making us grind missions to unlock an elaborate shop-front to buy gear from?

*speechless*
Well, the cost of the gear isn't that bad in the long run but it sure sucks for anyone with a Mk XI set, sitting on 2/3rds of a Mk XII set. Because none of that means anything in the new progress and that final piece of Mk XII gear now means you have months of grinding.

It's not as bad for a new player.

And that's one of my points:

Things should NOT be relatively better for some players than others.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 5,945
# 22
10-19-2012, 07:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stoleviathan99 View Post
Well, the cost of the gear isn't that bad in the long run but it sure sucks for anyone with a Mk XI set, sitting on 2/3rds of a Mk XII set. Because none of that means anything in the new progress and that final piece of Mk XII gear now means you have months of grinding.

It's not as bad for a new player.

And that's one of my points:

Things should NOT be relatively better for some players than others.
EXACTLY what perviously posted!!! This system just gives us a massive middle finger. Especially those who have been working on it since Season 5 went live.
NO to ARC!

Season 9.5 = STO's NGE is Here! Welcome to the Grind!

New Crafting = It's not Crafting, is an overblown Reputation System.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 248
# 23
10-19-2012, 07:49 PM
Weylandjuarez, I'm not sure I understand the outrage here. The current system requires you to grind STFs for a variety of slow-to-drop character-bound currencies that are used at a storefront.

The new system does indeed require grinding, but now the vast majority of the currency used can be obtained by playing almost any of the endgame content in the game (i.e. not just STFs) and can be transferred between characters.

Frankly, the cost isn't even all that unreasonable. Those of us who are long-time players with multiple alts can easily obtain the 14k or even 36k dilithium in an hour or two of very casual play when you factor in DOFF mission gains. I earned 50,000 dilithium tonight in three and a half hours of gameplay if you factor in the DOFF earnings I had waiting for me when I logged in.

I agree that it would be wonderful if we could just have everything as mission rewards with no need to repeat any of the content if we don't want to, but that's not a realistic expectation in an MMO. The reputation system seems to be a step in the right direction, in the sense that it replaces a very grindy system with extremely uncertain rewards with a marginally less grindy system with clearly defined and predictable rewards. It also serves the important role of acting as an alternate advancement system for characters who have pegged at 50.

And, perhaps most importantly, it's optional, which means that anyone who doesn't want the rewards or just doesn't want to deal with the added resource demand can just skip the content.

TL;DR version: I agree that the new system is grindy, but as currently implemented it is a lot less grindy than the systems it is replacing (i.e. STFs and the Vault Shuttle Event). As they said in What About Bob?: "baby steps."
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 5,425
# 24
10-19-2012, 07:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ashtaku View Post
Weylandjuarez, I'm not sure I understand the outrage here. The current system requires you to grind STFs for a variety of slow-to-drop character-bound currencies that are used at a storefront.

The new system does indeed require grinding, but now the vast majority of the currency used can be obtained by playing almost any of the endgame content in the game (i.e. not just STFs) and can be transferred between characters.
I want you to compare the likely trajectory of someone who earned Mk X, Mk XI, and 2/3rds of Mk XII versus that of a new player.

For the new player? Not bad, really.

For that other guy? The rug just got pulled out from under him.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 248
# 25
10-19-2012, 08:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stoleviathan99 View Post
I want you to compare the likely trajectory of someone who earned Mk X, Mk XI, and 2/3rds of Mk XII versus that of a new player.

For the new player? Not bad, really.

For that other guy? The rug just got pulled out from under him.
Leviathan, I was thinking about that earlier when I was reading through the posts. I see your point here and it is a valid one. I know that my progress in completing some of my STF special reserve sets is going to be delayed by this change as I bring my rep up to the appropriate level to complete the set, and this will (mildly) inconvenience me.

In a perfect world, I would love to see a system where those of us who have earned some of the old rewards to start at an advanced tier (even if we don't get the accompanying XP and thus still have to "catch up" to advance further as a balancing mechanism), but as with giving out the special reserve gear as direct mission rewards in gameplay, I don't think that's a realistic expectation.

Ultimately, I find myself coming to a couple of thoughts:

1) These changes haven't gone live yet on Holodeck and likely won't for some time. If you're in a position of needing just a few more items to complete a Mk XII set, there's time to earn it the old way before Season 7 launches -- if you are OK with the current method of earning it.

2) In the big picture, a temporary delay in accessing certain specific endgame gear isn't going to seriously reduce my enjoyment of the game. While accumulating rare gear, accolades, and virtual wealth is fun, for me at least those things are secondary to my enjoyment of playing the game.

So yeah, I agree with you that those of use who have already been playing STFs and earning the rewards the old way are going to get a bit of a speed bump as we have temporarily lose access to gear that, with (a lot of) luck we can get right now. Because we've been paying attention and watching Tribble we know it's coming and have an opportunity to finish off our XII sets the old way if we want, and afterwards... well, if we're taking one step back and then three steps forward, that's still two steps forward in the end.

TL;DR: You have a valid point, but the degree of anger being expressed (I'm not trying to single you out here - there are a lot of angry posts in this thread) seems to be an exercise in hyperbole. Us long-term players are facing a short-term and temporary annoyance in exchange for a system that appears to be a material improvement over the current STF grind.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,020
# 26
10-19-2012, 08:12 PM
Well, I've just checked it out in-game and it's worse than I thought. And seriously, what genius thought of unlocking this stuff over days.

(For those who haven't seen it, each project at Tier 1 takes 1 day, 16 hours to unlock for a total of 800-2000 XP - 5000 XP is needed for Tier 2 meaning that you've gotta wait what? A week to see Tier 2? Plus you'll have to log in every day to submit projects otherwise you'll drag the process out further)

Seriously devs, where's the fun in this? There is none. And the passive buffs are just - meh.

Oh, not forgetting that you have to unlock Mk X if you want the later stuff. Ridiculous.

*Edit* Arrgh! FFS! One last rant - if you really are going through with this, put the damn Fractal Remods in there as a purchasable early on so you don't have to suffer 4 seconds remods/Defera for this monstrosity.
Please join our peaceful protest to help make STO a better game
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Last edited by weylandjuarez; 10-19-2012 at 08:18 PM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 5,945
# 27
10-19-2012, 08:18 PM
You have to unlock MK X?

/picard facepalm
NO to ARC!

Season 9.5 = STO's NGE is Here! Welcome to the Grind!

New Crafting = It's not Crafting, is an overblown Reputation System.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,020
# 28
10-19-2012, 08:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by azurianstar View Post
You have to unlock MK X?

/picard facepalm
The first tier is Mk X ground gear

Second is Mk X space gear

Third Mk XI ground

Forth Mk XI space

Fifth is Mk XII

Also, apart from the new Borg space set, there's nothing new whatsoever in the list.

Zero new rewards for players that already have some or all of this gear (apart from presumbaly the cross-faction stuff Borticus has mentioned).

*Edit* So if you only play space STFs and hate the ground game - well tough, you still have to grind 5 Tiers of rep to be able to unlock your space gear.
Please join our peaceful protest to help make STO a better game
Proudly not contributing to PWE's bottom-line since October 2012
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 5,945
# 29
10-19-2012, 08:33 PM
They really should toss out this new system, because its just insulting to use who been playing it for months.

Not only that:

Getting Rid of EDCs / Salvage, gives less insentive of players going for the optional. Even right now, the prime reward people want is these EDCs / Salvage and when people see non Purple Items dropping, it is regarded as "junk" (Don't believe me Cryptic, feel free to do STFs).

Second, moving the STF store again, makes DS9 a ghost town again. So that itself is a stupid move.

Third, theses grinds are just terrible, people work hard for gear that they have to pay for items that are litearly 5 Digits in Dilithium costs?


It's like Cryptic purposely making the game unfun. Just makes me more convinced that PW is trying to close STO down.
NO to ARC!

Season 9.5 = STO's NGE is Here! Welcome to the Grind!

New Crafting = It's not Crafting, is an overblown Reputation System.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,020
# 30
10-19-2012, 08:39 PM
At least with the Fleet system you earn Credits that you can spend on stuff - a ship for instance (you don't have to buy the ones that use Fleet modules) - you don't even earn anything with this (apart from the abilities of which only the Tier 4 and 5 ones are interesting and really, completely unnecessary).

It's literally a personal resource sink to open a new Dilithium store. With the old system, we may not have had any money, but we could wander around the store. With this one, they won't even let me in the door until I've paid something first...

You're not really enticing me to shop Cryptic.
Please join our peaceful protest to help make STO a better game
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