Go Back   Star Trek Online > Feedback > PvP Gameplay
Login

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,339
There seem to be differing interpretations of what an engineer or a cruiser is supposed to be. I would beg someone from Cryptic to shed light on this.
On Stowiki, the following is stated:

About engineers:

"
Survivability, support generators, and controlling the paths of enemy advance with fieldworks. The Engineering officer can withstand the most damage by improving the performance of their personal shields, while supporting their away team with power generators or by bottlenecking the enemies advance with defensive mine fields. The Engineer's own combat effectiveness is improved by modifications to their firearms or support fire from fabricated turrets and drones.

Engineers have advanced technical skills that are available in both space and ground combat. They are adept as using Starfleet technology to its best advantage. They can help in reducing the amount of damage done to your ship, repair systems quickly, and even do things not in the Starfleet Operations Manual.

On the ground, Engineers can disable enemy technology, build force field generators, and perform various sorts of technological feats.

Careers

Engineers can choose from three different careers. Technicians (buffs and debuffs), Fabrication (turrets), and Combat (battlefield manipulation and explosives).

Technicians

Focus on buffs and debuffs. Their buffs focus on the entire group, unlike a Scientist.
Fabrication

Uses turrets. Most damage focused career for engineers.
Combat

Manipulates the battlefield for the advantage of the engineer. Combat engineers use demolition and explosives to hold the enemy.

Skills

Abilities

Personal abilities are ground and space based. Your characters personal ground skills depend on what type of kit you are using. The space abilities that your Captain can use are listed on the Player ability article. For a list of abilities that your Engineering bridge officers can use see the Bridge officer abilities article.



About cruisers:


Federation Cruisers are large, powerful vessels that excel at long range missions and exploration. Though typically flanked by escorts in combat, cruisers can deliver high damage with their large warp cores and broad complement of weapons. Cruisers are the backbone of Starfleet, fulfilling the most vital roles for the Federation.

Compared to other Federation vessels, Cruisers have strong hulls and average shields. All Federation Cruisers at tier 2 (Lieutenant Commander) or higher have 4 device slots and gain a bonus +5 to all power levels.


So why is it so many people keep claiming that Engineer/cruiser combinations are "little more than healboats"?

Nota bene, I am talking about design goals, not about what the game actually does.


Any of the good people at Cryptic, could you please explain what the intention behind the engineer cruiser is?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Promote what you love, instead of bashing what you hate.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...lM_skuv4#t=584
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 14,519
# 2
10-11-2012, 04:05 PM
I'm not at Cryptic, but I was going to reply to the discussion in the other thread about this - but I held off. Wish I had kept the post I had started to type out though...meh.

Personally, I didn't like how the discussion was including everything and then some in the discussion. There were too many things that were being included - that were separate items/topics, imho.

When discussing the Engineer - it should start just with the Engineer. The Engineer is not a Cruiser. The Engineer is not Engineering BOFFs. The Engineer is the Engineer.

And...the Engineer is a Tank. They're a self-buffing, cleansing, healing Tank. Yes, you can look at their Fleet ability and the bonus they provide to hull repairs. But that's a team ability. It doesn't mean that they're going to be doing the healing. With the Sci Fleet ability, there's a bonus for shield repairs - does Science get called the Healer like the Engineer? Nope. Yet as we saw recently in several threads - it's all about shield tanking/healing. Hrmm, but the Engineer is the Healer?

No...the Engineer is the Tank.

Well, who's the Healer? There is no Healer. What?

Tac -> DPS, Eng -> Tank, Sci-> Buff/Debuff

There is no "Healer" career.

But there are Healers! No, there are ships that because of their BOFF stations allow for them to be Healers!

So a Tac in a Cruiser or Science ship can be a Healer? Er, technically - that's true. They could build the toon*, build the BOFFs, build the ship - etc, etc, etc - to be a Tac Healer. If you had an Eng and a Sci in the team as well, they could even buff the Tac's healing with EFleet and SFleet.

* Outside of Ground Skills, you can build however you like - they're the same.

So why aren't there Tac Healers running around? Well, the Tac innate Abilities are about DPS (whether damage, debuffs, accuracy buffs, etc). They do not have the "Tank" of the Eng. They do not have the "DR" buff of the Sci. Tac Healers would be squishy. You could get around the Sci DR buff, simply by having the Sci on the team - but you can't get around the "Tank" of the Eng.

Well, having that "Tank" - doesn't that mean the Eng is the natural Healer? No, it means the Engineer is a Tank. But I just said the Eng would make the best Healer because of being the Tank... so is the Engineer the Healer or not? Not. Remember, the Healer is the character build, BOFF builds, the ship, the gear, etc, etc, etc.

But still, if the Engineer has that "Tank" edge - wouldn't it make sense for them to be the Healer? In PvP, I'd have to agree. There's no need for a Tank in PvP. You need to have some tank, but you do not need to be a Tank. It's kind of pointless to be a Tank in PvP. Again, Tank != tank: Tank bad/tank good. So tada, in PvP - the Engineer is the Healer.

Really? Well, they can't be the DPS. Face it, not even the Sci can really be the DPS. Both the Sci and Eng can do multiple things... the Tac's DPS. Yes, I know I said you could technically make a Tac Healer. Good luck with that.

So with there being no need for a Tank, the Engineer ends up being the Healer. Science can be Buff/Debuff/Healer. Yep, Sci can be a Healer. Not in the way people would make fun of you trying to be a Tac Healer...you could make the Sci Healer. You're not going to have the "Oh Snap, Tank!" of the Eng - but you can be a Healer.

If one were to step over into the "Trinity Universe" for a moment, it might look like this:

Tank - Engineer
Healer - Science** or Engineer
Off Heals - Science or Engineer
Buff - Science
Debuff - Science or Tactical
DPS - Tactical

** Given the discussion about shield tanking/healing, I'd likely go with Science there alone.

So you'd have the following:

Tank - Eng, Healer - Sci, and then the remaining three would be made up of Tac, Eng, and Sci. It would be unlikely that you wanted two Eng and two Sci, but hey - whatever floats your boat. I'd figure on two Tac and then either a second Sci or second Eng.

Which is nifty over in the "Trinity Universe" - but that's got not a damn thing to do with PvP.

So bam - the Engineer's the Healer. WTF? I said the Eng was the Tank, wtf? There's no Tank in PvP. If the Eng can be the Tank or the Healer, the Sci can be the Healer or Buff/Debuff, and the Tac can only be DPS... yeah, the Eng's the Healer.

So all of that - all of those annoying words and bloated explanation - just to say the Eng is the Healer? Well, in PvP...yeah. I believe it's important to understand the overall picture to see where they might have been coming from with their design goals.

Okay, so whatever...whatever...whatever. How about the Cruiser then?

I'm going to go smoke and then I'll share my thoughts on that. Here's a sneak peak:

The Cruiser is the Tank***...

Last edited by virusdancer; 10-11-2012 at 04:11 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 668
# 3
10-11-2012, 04:18 PM
Correct the cruiser and the engineer as per Cryptics docs is the TANK...

However as many pvp people have been saying for some time... it is impossible to TANK in pvp.

Tanking in PvE revolves around threat control... and forcing NPCs to shoot at you even though you would not be creating enough DPS or Healing to draw argo... (well healing you are capable of drawing argo though)... This is why Cryptic rightly added the threat control skill to the tree during the revamp....

Now to pvp you can't force Players to attack you... well unless you get in zone chat or onto the forums and make people hate you enough I guess. Still I wouldn't call those skills designed by Cryptic.

So when it comes to PvP you have to look to the ship and the Captains secondary setups... and its also right there in the documentation. Cruisers are a support ship often flanked in battle by escorts... they still deal dmg but they are NOT the dmg dealers... they are the DPS support ship... read that how you want and fly as you like... you can fly a tactical leaning cruiser and support with DPS, Understanding your ship is not designed to be a wolf... or you can build to what cryptic says is the ships secondary setup... Hull Healing...

In regards to hull healing there is NO better ship class or Captain type in the game.

Engi Cruiser is hands down the best hull healer in the game.... that isn't even debatable.

If that isn't Cryptics goal why are the best hull heals cruiser only ?

Yes the Engi Captains skills are pretty much all about self preservation... Rotate Shield Freq... M Worker... these have no use at all as far as dealing dmg go... the Engi gets one dmg buff nadion which is on the longest of all the captain type dmg buffs... so it is obviously not a Captain type designed to provide high dps...

What the Combo of Cruiser and Engi Captain skills allow... is massive hull healing with the kind of Captain backup skills that should allow every engi captain to support with every single boff heal they have... cause they can. If they come under fire they have rotate... and even M. Worker if needed to cover there behinds... and if they where healing a Sci ship or an escort properly playing there roles... they will recieve debuff and fire support from those players.....

What is your hoping for though soph... for a dev to come here and tell you cruisers are a swiss army knife....
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 14,519
# 4
10-11-2012, 04:29 PM
*** And there are no Tanks in PvP****.

So to keep a long story short, much like the Eng themselves - since they provide two options and one option is not valid - bazinga - Cruisers are the Healer!

Much like the discussion on Tac, Eng, and Sci... Escorts are not going to be Healers. Science Vessels could be Healers or Buffers/Debuffers. The Cruiser though - can't be the Tank. It's kind of funny and sad, mind you - how many folks show up in PUGs with their Tanks. That's another story - or maybe - that IS the story, eh?

Personally, I prefer the Eng in a Sci than an Eng in a Cruiser. One can argue about that Commander Eng BOFF vs the Commander Sci BOFF... but one can't really argue about the Cruiser waiting for the Universe to turn around the ship compared to the Sci Vessel actually moving around some...eh?

Course though, I really should say I prefer an Eng in a Carrier than an Eng in a Cruiser. Some would likely say the Sci in the Carrier is better than the Eng in the Carrier. I figure that with the turn rate and being a high priority target though - well, I prefer the Eng in the Carrier.

**** Yes, I asterisked the asterisk explanation. A premade can bring a Tank in a match against a PUG. It's the most amazing thing, imho. The average PUG player is drawn to the hardest to kill target - ignoring whatever is healing that target and ignoring whatever is killing them. I mean, it's exactly the idiotic AI often displayed by mobs facing the Trinity - they focus on the Tank, ignoring the Healer and DPS. PUG players will do that. Like moths to the flame, they'll target that Tank and allow themselves to be picked off by the other members of the opposing team. It's a simple base for a three-man: Tank, Healer, DPS. The other two members of the team could be off scratching themselves, and you're likely to still roll the average PUG.

So with all that said - it would appear that both the Engineer Career and Cruisers may need to be addressed in PvP. There's no place for Tanks (/cough - above) in PvP.

TBH, I think Tac needs some love as well - in a twisted sense. They're too focused on DPS. Sci have options. Tac and Eng...well, don't.

But of course, that's all just my 2 EC's worth - not adjusted for inflation. And in over 20 years of discussing things online, the thing I've enjoyed most about the STO forums over the years is my capacity to be wrong. That's a tough thing to say, really. I'm not used to being wrong - or at least not being able to weasel my way out of appearing wrong. Here though - there's some really smart guys and gals when it comes to the game. I don't mind eating crow here... though, I prefer when that crow's served in a nice way. I tend to get warnings from the mods when it's served by some of the arrogant schmucks...ahem, anyway.

Just my 2 EC...
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,282
# 5
10-11-2012, 04:29 PM
You know what, Before season 6 my Excelsiors did a little of everything, my cruisers could do damage and they could tank and they could heal with a limitation, anyone with a build for any one of these purposes would out perform me in that purpose, so while I had a good balance and could support any role asked of me i was never the bast at that role. then season 6 came along and my damage dropped and/or NPC stats went up and I was forced to do this OR that OR the other.

So I was forced from MY vision of a cruiser as a multi-purpose ship to someone elses vision of a cruiser as a this, that OR the other ship (which with an eng at the helm couldn't hope to do damage if I wanted to).

Personally I fail to see where it says in either the engineer desc or the cruiser desc "Choosing this will mean you can't do any appreciable damage" or words to that effect.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 820
# 6
10-11-2012, 04:42 PM
What they should do is,
get rid of the classes completely, we are no tactical officer or science officer. We are in command, the captain. We have a background in engineering or tactical, but that is it.
We are the 4th branch, Command.

I would suggest something like this,
level 0, character generation, you start of in one of the 3 basic branches that give you your first skill set. the tutorial so to speak. From there on you can learn whatever skill you want to invest your experience in. Keep it balance, for example, if you want APA, you can't get SNB or RSF. Just as basic concept.

-= ISE: 12:19 -=- CSE 12:41 -=- KASE 11:59 -=- HSe 8:06 total =-
-= KAGE 5:43 =-
[7:07] [Combat (Self)] Your Dual Disruptor Banks - Overload II deals 123086 (41096) Disruptor Damage(Critical) to Assimilated Carrier.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 14,519
# 7
10-11-2012, 04:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by adamkafei View Post
Personally I fail to see where it says in either the engineer desc or the cruiser desc "Choosing this will mean you can't do any appreciable damage" or words to that effect.
I think that's a problem that arises in the translation from one fictive world to another. Heh, I almost said real world - and - to an extent, it also applies to the real world if you consider the world's navies.

Cruisers cost more. In Star Trek, one could easily argue that Cruisers are the "best" ship. They do not have any of the issues that arise in Star Trek Online. At the same time though, they're not a dime-a-dozen in ST like they are in STO.

In many cases, a Cruiser would be overkill for the various missions in ST (ST, not STO) and simply would not justify the cost nor time (the resources) to build them for every willy nilly thing that might come up.

Ships would be mission specific. You wouldn't send the Escort out on that long range mission for all the diplomatic hoopla or scientific rigamarole. Likewise, as I just mentioned - you wouldn't be building Cruisers for things that you would use the Escort to do.

It's something that one could argue was massively botched going from one fictive world to the other...yet at the same time, not really. They catered to the obvious player desire to fly different ships. I mean, look at the Captain tier on the Fed side: Galaxy, Defiant, Voyager. Yep, some folks preferred TNG, some DS9, and some Voyager. They threw in the "dated" Connie for the collector; but given the timeline - they went where they did. There's folks that argued for being able to fly some of the older ships at endgame. They didn't care if it made sense or not - they wanted to fly their favorite ships! Tada, Fleet versions of some of those ships. Hell, the Ambassador's coming eventually...meh.

So STO's not quite what one would expect. Fanboism aside, could one really see the Defiant taking out the Enterprise? Heck, Voyager taking out the Enterprise? But that's ST...not STO. This is STO - so it is what it is.

That being said, I really wish they had gone with a more ship based system of leveling. Not quite like what they do where they force you into a shuttle or a fighter for certain missions, but more akin to if you're in X ship - you do A missions - Y ship - B missions, etc, etc, etc. But that's all PvE...

...in PvP? I wish they'd done something more akin to what CCP does for their tournaments in EVE. Of course, that would make it a major PITA to try to PUG PvP...lol.

There's supposed to be some revamp taking place with Season 7-9, no? Have to wonder what that's going to involve - how it will affect the various Careers, Ships, and all the rest.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 14,519
# 8
10-11-2012, 05:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lostusthorn View Post
What they should do is,
get rid of the classes completely, we are no tactical officer or science officer. We are in command, the captain. We have a background in engineering or tactical, but that is it.
We are the 4th branch, Command.

I would suggest something like this,
level 0, character generation, you start of in one of the 3 basic branches that give you your first skill set. the tutorial so to speak. From there on you can learn whatever skill you want to invest your experience in. Keep it balance, for example, if you want APA, you can't get SNB or RSF. Just as basic concept.
It's kind of funny, thinking about it. Look at the skills the character has - then look at the abilities the character has. The skills are mainly about improving what the BOFFs can do, rather than what the character can do. The BOFFs have the majority of the abilities.

So in a sense, we are that Command branch with some background in Tactical, Science, or Engineering that gives us some basic abilities from that background.

That being said though - I kind of like what you suggest there; since it would (imho) better reflect the growth of a character. The problem of course though on the Fed side is that there is a much more organized hierarchy with Starfleet. It's a little more rigid - maybe a lot more rigid.

Still though, Starfleet offered all sorts of varieties within those areas. Heck, we see that in the DOFFs and even BOFFs.

The character is just a shell - defined by the ship, BOFFs, and DOFFs.

It could be interesting to make the character more advanced - offer additional choices as found from BOFFs/DOFFs... that a character could select as they level up.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 633
# 9
10-11-2012, 05:14 PM
Quote:
Fanboism aside, could one really see the Defiant taking out the Enterprise? Heck, Voyager taking out the Enterprise?
At the time the defiant was built, yes the defiant would clean house with the enterprise as we where still on the D. But yeah any later enterprise, nah.

The real issue here is that in Star Trek proper cruiser really where the workhorses of the fleet, they just used older less capable cruisers for the lesser assignemnts. Escorts didn't even exist till after Wolf 359, and science ships where used primarilly as means of investigating known "safe2 science stuff as they where poorely armd. Even Voyager in Star Trek lore is more of a light cruiser than a true pure science ship.

But then Starfleets cruiser focus makes sense, they where heavy into deep space exploration and needed ships that could not only do good science, but could stand upto whatever unknown agressors they might run into and still be able to do all this whils being away from a major starbase for years at a time, (i seem to think we had one example of a Nebulae class that was sent on a 10 year mission in cannon).

Natrually though they wanted a bit more gamepla veriaty than all crisers and people did want to fly their defiant's. So they expanded the escort and science ship concepts beyond their cannon area's.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,400
# 10
10-11-2012, 05:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by husanakx View Post
Correct the cruiser and the engineer as per Cryptics docs is the TANK...

However as many pvp people have been saying for some time... it is impossible to TANK in pvp.

Tanking in PvE revolves around threat control... and forcing NPCs to shoot at you even though you would not be creating enough DPS or Healing to draw argo... (well healing you are capable of drawing argo though)... This is why Cryptic rightly added the threat control skill to the tree during the revamp....

Now to pvp you can't force Players to attack you... well unless you get in zone chat or onto the forums and make people hate you enough I guess. Still I wouldn't call those skills designed by Cryptic.

So when it comes to PvP you have to look to the ship and the Captains secondary setups... and its also right there in the documentation. Cruisers are a support ship often flanked in battle by escorts... they still deal dmg but they are NOT the dmg dealers... they are the DPS support ship... read that how you want and fly as you like... you can fly a tactical leaning cruiser and support with DPS, Understanding your ship is not designed to be a wolf... or you can build to what cryptic says is the ships secondary setup... Hull Healing...

In regards to hull healing there is NO better ship class or Captain type in the game.

Engi Cruiser is hands down the best hull healer in the game.... that isn't even debatable.

If that isn't Cryptics goal why are the best hull heals cruiser only ?

Yes the Engi Captains skills are pretty much all about self preservation... Rotate Shield Freq... M Worker... these have no use at all as far as dealing dmg go... the Engi gets one dmg buff nadion which is on the longest of all the captain type dmg buffs... so it is obviously not a Captain type designed to provide high dps...

What the Combo of Cruiser and Engi Captain skills allow... is massive hull healing with the kind of Captain backup skills that should allow every engi captain to support with every single boff heal they have... cause they can. If they come under fire they have rotate... and even M. Worker if needed to cover there behinds... and if they where healing a Sci ship or an escort properly playing there roles... they will recieve debuff and fire support from those players.....

What is your hoping for though soph... for a dev to come here and tell you cruisers are a swiss army knife....

I agree with the above assessment completely.

Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:35 PM.