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Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 591
# 11
10-21-2012, 02:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tick0 View Post
/hphotos-ak-snc6/286156_4373640331562_1310939049_o.jpg[/url]

As we can see, Ricky Bobby dealt a tonne of damage. Let's look into this hax!

http://sphotos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/hphoto...15267676_o.jpg

I don't know about you, but when I saw that 'Mine Explosion' accounted for 1.27 million of his damage score (that's 23% as you can see in the pie chart), I went WUUUUUUUUUUUT. So I asked Ricky Bobby what mine he was using on the aft of his Jem... He said he was using a single tric mine, unspecced.

This just doesn't seem right...
Seems perfectly fine to me as dispersal pattern 3 is a Commander skill most likely backed up by the attack pattern that lowers Kinetic resistance. Why should a weapon that fires once ever 60seconds with a commander power not do high damage?

Do your really think 23% is too much damage for a commander skill? How much damage do the other DPS commander skills do? If anything dispersal pattern 3 is on the low end of damage. How does it compare to commander level rapid fire or scatter volly? EDIT: Looking at your link the Commander skill did almost half the damge with mines over the lt commander skill. You also have to take into account mines are AoE so if 3 targets are hit that is x3 DPS on parser even if 2 of those targets only took a dint to shields.

The real problem is Engineers are meant to be the mine layers but Engineers in cruisers do not have access to Commander Mine powers.

Last edited by pottsey5g; 10-21-2012 at 02:30 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 210
# 12
10-21-2012, 02:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pottsey5g View Post
Seems perfectly fine to me as dispersal pattern 3 is a Commander skill most likely backed up by the attack pattern that lowers Kinetic resistance. Why should a weapon that fires once ever 60seconds with a commander power not do high damage?

Do your really think 23% is too much damage for a commander skill? How much damage do the other DPS commander skills do? If anything dispersal pattern 3 is on the low end of damage. How does it compare to commander level rapid fire or scatter volly? EDIT: Looking at your link the Commander skill did almost half the damge with mines over the lt commander skill. You also have to take into account mines are AoE so if 3 targets are hit that is x3 DPS on parser even if 2 of those targets only took a dint to shields.

The real problem is Engineers are meant to be the mine layers but Engineers in cruisers do not have access to Commander Mine powers.
Um, I have no idea where you're getting Dispersal Pattern 3 from. Ricky Bobby doesn't use those at all... And I don't believe he uses Attack Pattern Beta either if that's what you were getting at when you said "lowers Kinetic resistance".

We're talking about a single tricobalt mine with no speccing into kinetic damage or use of dispersal patterns whatsoever. Also, as you pointed out, it has a 60 second CD. All of this and yet that little lonesome tric accounted for a quarter of his overall damage score.

Btw, I have nothing against Ricky in this situation, it's just a good example.

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Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 510
# 13
10-21-2012, 05:03 AM
To be far he'd have got better % totals out of other mine types as tric's have the lowest DPS of the lot. But from a raw balance PoV i've long thought tric's should be dropped in damage 50% and dropped in CD 50%. Would put paid to the silly super crits.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 210
# 14
10-21-2012, 06:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by carl103 View Post
To be far he'd have got better % totals out of other mine types as tric's have the lowest DPS of the lot.
Actually, he wouldn't have. If you compare it to someone who uses Chroniton Mines, the damage difference is quite large.

A good example is the match we had before this. One of the escorts on my team, Jam0, was using a single unspecced Chroniton Mine Launcher which accounted for 76,524 (4%) of his damage total. Since this match only lasted 12 minutes compared to the second match which lasted 22 minutes, you can assume that it could have been about 150,000.

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Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,807
# 15
10-21-2012, 07:45 AM
The real problem with them IMHO is something that also applies to torp spread/HY as well in some situations (like Dono).

As you can see from the log even though they all likely hit within mere seconds of one another the first two dropped your shield and its corresponding resistance allowing the others to hit for full (relatively) damage to your hull. Torp Spead with its multiple instant hits does the same thing. Also of note if the hit deals enough damage to drop the shield it seems that it also ignores the shield's resistance even if part of the damage is applied to the shield but I never truly tested that.

Simply put if they hit so fast not even tac team can redistribute the shield then they should be reduced by the shields resistance as well. Anything else is simply a bug IMHO. This would also fix the balance issue.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 797
# 16
10-21-2012, 07:51 AM
I dunno about you but when I use my tric mine launchers it amazes me at how often I only get 10k or so for a hit. That's usually after I've sensor scanned them ad grav pulses them. Of course I fly science so unless I know their shields down (shield stripper) the mines don't get numbers anywhere near what I hear they can get. Even when I do know the shields down I get no more then 35k to a hit.

Sounds like to me the mines are fine, it's buffs as a tactical (and tactical buffs) applying to them that make them insane... Sounds a lot like the issue with tacs and science powers to me.

FAw and scatter volley and situational awareness and te point defense turret and the auto defense turret and using mines of your own or using pets on intercept... Sounds like a fair enough ways to "counter" this weapon to me. Oh ad any aoe dmg ability (shockwave grav well turns rift eject warp plasma)

Since I'm science I have to actually plan my mine drops I can't just dump them and wait for a magic number hit like a tac captain can. Why should I be punished for using finess when they're causing the issue with brute strength?
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,807
# 17
10-21-2012, 09:15 AM
Ok just did a little bit of quick testing and there IS a bug with shield resists vs Kinetic damage somewhere. I just don't know where exactly.

I sat there and shot at a ship with a Q torp buffed to hit for between 6.5k up to 18k per hit and the resistances were not consistent at all as reported by the log. Perhaps I am just misreading it I didn't have enough time on my good box to do a through test but with shields up at times it would reduce the damage by up to 90% from a crit and at other times barely by 50%. It was...odd. If someone with more time/expertise on the matter wants to take a crack at it we just all might learn something.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 510
# 18
10-21-2012, 09:17 AM
Quote:
Actually, he wouldn't have. If you compare it to someone who uses Chroniton Mines, the damage difference is quite large.

A good example is the match we had before this. One of the escorts on my team, Jam0, was using a single unspecced Chroniton Mine Launcher which accounted for 76,524 (4%) of his damage total. Since this match only lasted 12 minutes compared to the second match which lasted 22 minutes, you can assume that it could have been about 150,000.
Sorry but it's a lower DPS mine, you can't not get better values out of it. I'd suggest your freind is just very good with mines by comparision to the other guy or was using them in a drasticlly diffrent way.

That said, like i allready mentioned, the real issue is it's too bursy with that 60 second CD. Cut it to 30 with an equally large base damage drop and the silly supercrits and 4x super crits go bye bye without hurting it overall.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,395
# 19
10-21-2012, 09:35 AM
I think part of the gripe comes from the fact that it costs very little to put a tric on any ship, even if you don't intend on building around it or buffing it in any way. If they were front weapons people would probably have a lot less of a problem, but as it stands what do you lose really for fielding one? A turret?

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Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 591
# 20
10-21-2012, 10:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tick0 View Post
Um, I have no idea where you're getting Dispersal Pattern 3 from. Ricky Bobby doesn't use those at all... And I don't believe he uses Attack Pattern Beta either if that's what you were getting at when you said "lowers Kinetic resistance".

We're talking about a single tricobalt mine with no speccing into kinetic damage or use of dispersal patterns whatsoever. Also, as you pointed out, it has a 60 second CD. All of this and yet that little lonesome tric accounted for a quarter of his overall damage score.

Btw, I have nothing against Ricky in this situation, it's just a good example.
The only way he could get that many hits with that DPS is to use Dispersal Patterns. I might be wrong about the level used but looking at the numbers there is no way he did not use Dispersal Patterns. A single tricobalt mine with a 100% hit ratio averages out at 556dps with his numbers and a single tricobalt would take over 38 minutes to drop 38mines. As the match was under 38mins and as the DPS was higher than 556 he must have used Dispersal Patterns unless I missed something. I see nothing wrong with around 1000dps from a skill.

EDIT: Well I guess he could have done it without Dispersal Patterns if he used more then 1 mine launcher.

Last edited by pottsey5g; 10-21-2012 at 11:02 AM.
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