Captain
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 2,491
# 11
10-21-2012, 10:00 AM
Venting can be theraputic. But the end result is still the same: players need to evaluate the value of the game for themselves. If they don't like it, then venting doesn't solve the actual problem and adds to the volumes of acrimony already in view. Choices need to be made and it's really this simple:

play
don't play

If you don't enjoy the game, then you need to not play it for your own sake. It's a game and games are meant for fun. Although grinding is a PITA it is a part of the MMO experince and it won't go away. Every game has it in one form or another and it's never .... ever ... designed to be fun - unless you make it fun for yourself, the game should not do this for you.

If you really like spaceship combat ... EVE Online is a great alternative. If you prefer ground combat, then you have a lot ... A LOT of options. But if you really like the Star Trek universe to play in, then you need to find another way to deal with the situation.

Good luck!
Kathryn S. Beringer - The Dawn Patrol

Solaris build - Veritatum Liquido Cernene
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 170
# 12
10-21-2012, 10:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmdrscarlet View Post
Venting can be theraputic. But the end result is still the same: players need to evaluate the value of the game for themselves. If they don't like it, then venting doesn't solve the actual problem and adds to the volumes of acrimony already in view. Choices need to be made and it's really this simple:

play
don't play

If you don't enjoy the game, then you need to not play it for your own sake. It's a game and games are meant for fun. Although grinding is a PITA it is a part of the MMO experince and it won't go away. Every game has it in one form or another and it's never .... ever ... designed to be fun - unless you make it fun for yourself, the game should not do this for you.

If you really like spaceship combat ... EVE Online is a great alternative. If you prefer ground combat, then you have a lot ... A LOT of options. But if you really like the Star Trek universe to play in, then you need to find another way to deal with the situation.

Good luck!
....A lot of us like the universe. And think this game has destroyed it in more ways than one. For the record. This Trekkie is leaning heavily towards 'dont play' Space combat is fun but honestly someone's going to get it right sooner or later and then this game isnt gonna be worth ****. Eve Online isnt space combat for the record. That's nowhere near what people want.

CBS needs to pull the plug on this game the more i see dev responses and the more i see the contempt...
Community Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 862
# 13
10-21-2012, 10:11 AM
Two main things I need to bring up.

First of all, this needs to be in the feedback forum.


Secondly can I suggest that instead of just raging against the team, you propose alternatives, ideas, feedback and constructive criticism.

It's worth remembering that it's a F2P game, that's not likely to change, so it's perhaps worth considering thoughts of 'I don't like monetizing of A, why not monetize B?'

Just some friendly feedback.
Volunteer Community Moderator for the Star Trek Online Forums. My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment.
If you wish to speak to someone on the community team, file a 'forums and website' support ticket here, as we are not able to respond to PMs regarding moderation inquiries.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 170
# 14
10-21-2012, 10:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tobar26th View Post
Two main things I need to bring up.

First of all, this needs to be in the feedback forum.


Secondly can I suggest that instead of just raging against the team, you propose alternatives, ideas, feedback and constructive criticism.

It's worth remembering that it's a F2P game, that's not likely to change, so it's perhaps worth considering thoughts of 'I don't like monetizing of A, why not monetize B?'

Just some friendly feedback.
I'm sorry but that's been done. Its falling on deaf ears clearly. There hasnt been any news of changes on tribble and no one's offered a response. Bran's made some damage control statements but we clearly see a train wreck up ahead. And as someone who has money to invest i dont feel like putting it in this game is a good investment when the Dev's aren't willing to take time to respond to a NUMBER of concerns.

1. These changes All of the ones being talked about were STEALTH originally, unpublished. I have seen this in EVE online Rift Anarchy Online and a host of others. You do not make changes like this unless your intent is to attempt to sneak one past the playerbase. It almost never works but the dev's try anyway.

2. Diltihium sinks are being added and new sources aren't being added. Plus you have an 8k per day cap. Nine if you pay. If you max it out thats 56k per week. Based on the numbers being posted and what it'll take to get these items. That's at least two weeks of CONSTANT playing. Closer to a month for most more casual players.

3. The gear change to STF sets really hurts players simply because they're taking advantage of the best gear setup available. And at the time (and as of now as far as i know) The Aegis Jem and Breen sets were NOT being looked at for revamps.

4. Then there's the Twitter where the Dev apparently insults the playerbase... I dont know enough about this to say one thing or another. But if this is actually true and an STO dev did that? It wont be the first time. It wont be the last. No gaming company has the balls to fire a dev over such a thing unfortunately. But it does make player's decisions a HELL of a lot easier on if they want to play this game or not.

5. A lot of us are Trekkies. We know what we wanted in this game, we're not getting it. We hang on hoping someone will get a clue but for me? In this instance. I'm at a make it or break it point. And it feels like its going to turn into SWG NGE all over again. I wont be around for that disaster.

As for 'It's worth remembering that it's a F2P game, that's not likely to change, so it's perhaps worth considering thoughts of 'I don't like monetizing of A, why not monetize B?'

They've chosen to Monetize. EVERYTHING it looks like. And that's the worst part of all.
Captain
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 2,491
# 15
10-21-2012, 10:45 AM
There is nothing in STO any player needs to pay for. Nothing. It is truly a free game to play. There is not one company in the world that can offer it's product without some form of compensation. If any player wants a little bit more, then there is a cost to it and they have the choice to either satisfy that desire by paying for it, or "suffering" to preserve their pocketbook.

If anyone doesn't like the monetization then don't be a part of that process. It's that simple.

The rest is seriously, at the very least, a gripe.

As for deaf ears: this board is so full of posts that complain more than help ... how could any one person find the chirp of a good idea when surrounded by the yelling of vitriol. When a Mod comes in and says, essentially, "help not hurt" ... why not try that?
Kathryn S. Beringer - The Dawn Patrol

Solaris build - Veritatum Liquido Cernene
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 170
# 16
10-21-2012, 11:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmdrscarlet View Post
There is nothing in STO any player needs to pay for. Nothing. It is truly a free game to play. There is not one company in the world that can offer it's product without some form of compensation. If any player wants a little bit more, then there is a cost to it and they have the choice to either satisfy that desire by paying for it, or "suffering" to preserve their pocketbook.

If anyone doesn't like the monetization then don't be a part of that process. It's that simple.

The rest is seriously, at the very least, a gripe.

As for deaf ears: this board is so full of posts that complain more than help ... how could any one person find the chirp of a good idea when surrounded by the yelling of vitriol. When a Mod comes in and says, essentially, "help not hurt" ... why not try that?
That's impossible, Because it is linked directly to fleet equipment and gear. Which as of these changes will probably be End-all Be-all in terms of what a player can use.

When we say NO this loudly and they still go forward. What the hell is the point of suggesting something different. We all know what the core of this issue is $$$ They're effectively making dilithium the lifeblood of the game without making it easier to get WITHOUT PAYING MONEY!

You need dilthium for the following as of right now.
  1. Fleet Projects. All fleet projects including the optionals have a dilithium cost. A big one usually 200k for the optionals. Starbase upgrades have an ungodly cost.
  2. Fleet Store items of all types. I'm compressing the fact that every item out of there needs dilith.
  3. It's needed if you want to F2P something out of the Z store unless you want to run tour the universe a bunch of times to buy Fleet Ship Modules. You still need to at least once buy a reset, extra character slots oh and lets not forget the 10 mill EC limit forced on the rest of the F2P playerbase which makes getting one of those ships out of a lockbox near impossible
  4. It's about to be needed in more areas, The new Embassy, will probably require 3-5 mill dilithium i'm gonna guess.
  5. Personal Projects to advance your way through the reputation system apparently.
  6. Oh and lets not forget to buy the STF items themselves.

Without a revamp of the Jem'Hadar, Aegis and Breen sets a player will have ZERO choice if they want to be competitive in ANY end game content or PVP content for that matter. This means they will not be able to spend it on other NEEDED things. Fleet improvements or Z store items. To get those items they will have to spend cash. And not a small amount of it at this point. A fleet ship costs 20 bucks US. The Oddy package is fifty US.
This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Perfect World Entertainment Community Rules and Policies . ~Tobar26th

Last edited by tobar26th; 10-21-2012 at 11:53 AM.
Community Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 862
# 17
10-21-2012, 11:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by outlaw51825 View Post
I'm sorry but that's been done. Its falling on deaf ears clearly. There hasnt been any news of changes on tribble and no one's offered a response. Bran's made some damage control statements but we clearly see a train wreck up ahead. And as someone who has money to invest i dont feel like putting it in this game is a good investment when the Dev's aren't willing to take time to respond to a NUMBER of concerns.

1. These changes All of the ones being talked about were STEALTH originally, unpublished. I have seen this in EVE online Rift Anarchy Online and a host of others. You do not make changes like this unless your intent is to attempt to sneak one past the playerbase. It almost never works but the dev's try anyway.
I feel it's worth pointing out that these are changes going out on a test server, you're right, they weren't in the patch notes, but incomplete patch notes aren't exactly uncommon for any game's test server, and certianly not STOs.
2. Diltihium sinks are being added and new sources aren't being added. Plus you have an 8k per day cap. Nine if you pay. If you max it out thats 56k per week. Based on the numbers being posted and what it'll take to get these items. That's at least two weeks of CONSTANT playing. Closer to a month for most more casual players.
This is true, and I'd love (and hope!) to see more sources soon, with the cap it should definitely be possible to earn more Dilithium than is currently possible, new content should equal some new sources.
3. The gear change to STF sets really hurts players simply because they're taking advantage of the best gear setup available. And at the time (and as of now as far as i know) The Aegis Jem and Breen sets were NOT being looked at for revamps.
True, but as Borticus has pointed out elsewhere, the Aegis set at least (I don't believe he's commented on the Breen one) is not intended to be and end game setup, they're cool for where they are, and add options, but to expect every gear set to be level is naive. That said, I have a B'Rel Retrofit who gets extremely efficient use out of the Breen set's elements Sure it's not common but can be done.
4. Then there's the Twitter where the Dev apparently insults the playerbase... I dont know enough about this to say one thing or another. But if this is actually true and an STO dev did that? It wont be the first time. It wont be the last. No gaming company has the balls to fire a dev over such a thing unfortunately. But it does make player's decisions a HELL of a lot easier on if they want to play this game or not.
I follow most (all) of the Devs who are on Twitter, and yeah, I occasionally see comments that I think 'Should you say that about your customers?' but at the end of the day the only people I think have 'official' accounts are the community managers (i.e. Brandon) the others are personal accounts, in fact that said ThomastheCat has both - a work and home account, in his defence I don't recall him saying a bad word against the playerbase ever, but I suspect you'd notice if he did as it would be on his home account (hypothetically of course) and not his CrypticTTC one (or whatever the handle is).

The Devs are of course people, and have personal Twitter accounts, the nature of the internet means that short of making their accounts hidden/private people will find them. Are they allowed to vent about their customers? Why the frig not? If it's their personal account, and Cryptic/PWE has no social media policy preventing such things then fair game, if you choose to follow such an account please try to remember that. Now if you followe @PWE_Branflakes (Brandons work account) and see him slagging off the player base on there? I'd encourage you to call foul, he doesn't - it's a professional account and used as such.

5. A lot of us are Trekkies. We know what we wanted in this game, we're not getting it. We hang on hoping someone will get a clue but for me? In this instance. I'm at a make it or break it point. And it feels like its going to turn into SWG NGE all over again. I wont be around for that disaster.

As for 'It's worth remembering that it's a F2P game, that's not likely to change, so it's perhaps worth considering thoughts of 'I don't like monetizing of A, why not monetize B?'

They've chosen to Monetize. EVERYTHING it looks like. And that's the worst part of all.
Ok, so let's assume that 'monetizing everything' brings in the desired revenue for the company to stay open, keep servers online, and pay the wages - what would you prefer not be monetized and, being realistic, what would you be willing to pay more for?
Quote:
Originally Posted by outlaw51825 View Post
That's impossible, Because it is linked directly to fleet equipment and gear. Which as of these changes will probably be End-all Be-all in terms of what a player can use.
I'm obliged to point out Fleet gear isn't that good, though I fear I may have misunderstood what you meant there. If so I apologise.
When we say NO this loudly and they still go forward. What the hell is the point of suggesting something different. We all know what the core of this issue is $$$ They're effectively making dilithium the lifeblood of the game without making it easier to get WITHOUT PAYING MONEY!

You need dilthium for the following as of right now.
  1. Fleet Projects. All fleet projects including the optionals have a dilithium cost. A big one usually 200k for the optionals. Starbase upgrades have an ungodly cost.
  2. Fleet Store items of all types. I'm compressing the fact that every item out of there needs dilith.
  3. It's needed if you want to F2P something out of the Z store unless you want to run tour the universe a bunch of times to buy Fleet Ship Modules. You still need to at least once buy a reset, extra character slots oh and lets not forget the 10 mill EC limit forced on the rest of the F2P playerbase which makes getting one of those ships out of a lockbox near impossible
  4. It's about to be needed in more areas, The new Embassy, will probably require 3-5 mill dilithium i'm gonna guess.
  5. Personal Projects to advance your way through the reputation system apparently.
  6. Oh and lets not forget to buy the STF items themselves.

Without a revamp of the Jem'Hadar, Aegis and Breen sets a player will have ZERO choice if they want to be competitive in ANY end game content or PVP content for that matter. This means they will not be able to spend it on other NEEDED things. Fleet improvements or Z store items. To get those items they will have to spend cash. And not a small amount of it at this point. A fleet ship costs 20 bucks US. The Oddy package is fifty US.
Whilst I again concur I want more ways to earn dilithium (I believe we should see new dailies at least every season, variety is what keeps me playing - I long since got bored of blasting the Breen...) I feel to expect to be given enough dilithium to cover everything you want is a bit self entitled, as you say - they need to make money, if you choose not to spend money, expect things to take longer. Then again, it's fair to say that this is what the dilithium cap is there for, that said if they add enough ways in for us to all make 8000 a day I'd expect costs to rise, or an even bigger set of dilithium sinks to appear to spend money on - they do afterall need to keep the lights on and the Dilithium/Zen economy helps with that..
Please don't take these as flames, merely my own views, hopefully you'll see what I mean. I've editted (or will be doing momentarily) the end of your post as it verges on racial attacks which are obviously against forum rules.
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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 170
# 18
10-21-2012, 12:22 PM
Thanks for your responses on my points i wish you'd done some editing work so i could seperate them out but i'll try to address.

Quote:
Ok, so let's assume that 'monetizing everything' brings in the desired revenue for the company to stay open, keep servers online, and pay the wages - what would you prefer not be monetized and, being realistic, what would you be willing to pay more for?
Right now the problem is Dilithium is needed for far too much. It's being added to Doff's Its the lifeblood of starbases and its going to be added into the personal reputation system. It is required if you want any half reliable source of zen without paying for it. Not being employed as of this moment this is a pretty big deal for me. I dont want to feel like i am going to be forced to buy zen for the pure purpose of getting dilithium. Which based off what's in play right now is EXACTLY the feeling a lot of us are getting.

I would like to see a reset become available to any player every six months or so. Maybe even once a year.

I feel like the 10 million cap for energy credits forces a player to use Zen/Dilith he'd rather put towards a ship so he has the ability to get various high cost items off the exchange. This isnt good. I'd rather see 100 mil be the basic cap maybe fifty. Give a free player some room to negotiate or play the exchange himself. Add in an escrow account simular to how DCUO handles anyone going over that a player can pay to extract money from.

Quote:
True, but as Borticus has pointed out elsewhere, the Aegis set at least (I don't believe he's commented on the Breen one) is not intended to be and end game setup, they're cool for where they are, and add options, but to expect every gear set to be level is naive. That said, I have a B'Rel Retrofit who gets extremely efficient use out of the Breen set's elements Sure it's not common but can be done.
I'd love to see that in combat to be honest, but the current thinking says otherwise. MK 12 gear is what everyone wants. And right now these sets do not go to MK 12. Without set gear the only viable option is fleet. Which leads to this

Quote:
I'm obliged to point out Fleet gear isn't that good, though I fear I may have misunderstood what you meant there. If so I apologise.
In this case i specifically mean fleet weapons which are quite frankly from a multipurpose aspect the best weapons you can get your hands on depending on your spec/combat style. Fleet shields hold their own against Maco and i havent seen elite of the other mods to gauge how good deflectors and engines would be.

Quote:
Whilst I again concur I want more ways to earn dilithium (I believe we should see new dailies at least every season, variety is what keeps me playing - I long since got bored of blasting the Breen...) I feel to expect to be given enough dilithium to cover everything you want is a bit self entitled, as you say - they need to make money, if you choose not to spend money, expect things to take longer. Then again, it's fair to say that this is what the dilithium cap is there for, that said if they add enough ways in for us to all make 8000 a day I'd expect costs to rise, or an even bigger set of dilithium sinks to appear to spend money on - they do afterall need to keep the lights on and the Dilithium/Zen economy helps with that..
This is where you misunderstand me. Right now the dilithium sinks are massive and the sources are poor. Massive sinks ARENT always a bad thing. But when you force a player to choose between helping his fleet, helping himself, and getting a new ship all at the same time? In a process that can take close to a year to setttle itself out? That isnt a good thing. A player should not be forced to choose between personal advancement and fleet advancement. Only a fully fitted fleet can avoid that choice of which there are NONE and probably wont be for awhile. They need to find a way around this. Or people are just going to give up because it will become a JOB to play this game.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,146
# 19
10-21-2012, 12:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by geoff484 View Post
I also want to add that I absolutely HATE the random drop idea with STFs. I don't like the idea of "play this mission until completely hate it and puke every time you even hear the name before you can get high end gear". What happened to the simple idea of being rewarded for being successful in a mission rather than "Awesome, that mission went smooth... Now after playing that for the 234,562,789th time HOPEFULLY I get the drop I've been waiting for".

You guys add things that NOBODY asked for, that NOBODY wants - Why would you think a reward system like that would work well? Money? There's not dilithium involved to play these missions so it can't be that. Is it for the sole purpose of driving us to the point of insanity? Is it a marketing move in hopes that we'll go crazy from the repetitive play that we'll start forking over money for stupid things?

Ugh... Anyways, apologies again, I just had to vent.
Good news is, this horrible chance game is going away in Season 7.

Bad news is, that chance system was replaced with the reputation system, where you must grind your way to UNLOCK permission to purchase these items. AND you need to use dilithium...

I will say though, that a handful of elite STF runs with an absolute certainty of obtaining MkXII gear is more welcoming than the horrible chance system we've had to deal with, and the main reason I stopped playing elites.
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Join Date: Oct 2009 - My Youtube Stuff
Community Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 862
# 20
10-21-2012, 12:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by outlaw51825 View Post
Thanks for your responses on my points i wish you'd done some editing work so i could seperate them out but i'll try to address.
Ahem, yes, possibly slightly lazy of me - sorry. Didn't consider people replying.
Quote:
Originally Posted by outlaw51825 View Post

Right now the problem is Dilithium is needed for far too much. It's being added to Doff's Its the lifeblood of starbases and its going to be added into the personal reputation system. It is required if you want any half reliable source of zen without paying for it. Not being employed as of this moment this is a pretty big deal for me. I dont want to feel like i am going to be forced to buy zen for the pure purpose of getting dilithium. Which based off what's in play right now is EXACTLY the feeling a lot of us are getting.
It's worth pointing out that at introduction that Zen (then Cryptic Points) and dilithium were seen as being different sides of the same coin. Zen was a currency you were rewarded with for contributing financially to the game, dilithium for time put in. The logic here is that it lets people like you, who for whatever reason don't have money, can exchange your dilithium for money currency, and those with money can exchange it for time based currency. Now this falls down slightly where we have a limit on the amount of 'time' you can earn in a day, and no limit on the money you can spend. If that makes sense?

Dilithium is definitely at a premium, I will admit I feel it less, I have 9 toons myself, in a mid sized fleet, I just don't get hit as bad as solo players and smaller fleets, but I'm not unsympathetic to it at all. I often find myself stuck between using my dilithium to buy Zen (whilst employed, I don't have much/any disposable income), and using it to donate to Starbase projects that I can see stalling, and then there's that shiny Fleet Rifle that I fancy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by outlaw51825 View Post
I would like to see a reset become available to any player every six months or so. Maybe even once a year.
I agree, kinda, Cryptic have a very odd stance with this, in the past, and in fact in City of Heroes (formerly a Cryptic game) you could earn them in game through grinding, or big dungeon style raids. Whilst this may not work in a F2P setting I'd say players should get one with each 'Season' update, as changes are often gamebreaking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by outlaw51825 View Post
I feel like the 10 million cap for energy credits forces a player to use Zen/Dilith he'd rather put towards a ship so he has the ability to get various high cost items off the exchange. This isnt good. I'd rather see 100 mil be the basic cap maybe fifty. Give a free player some room to negotiate or play the exchange himself. Add in an escrow account simular to how DCUO handles anyone going over that a player can pay to extract money from.
Sorry, but the cap increase is a relatively cheap Dil --> Zen --> purchase which I can't help but feel isn't unreasonable. Something like 500 Zen I believe? Spring a few bucks on that one

Quote:
Originally Posted by outlaw51825 View Post


I'd love to see that in combat to be honest, but the current thinking says otherwise. MK 12 gear is what everyone wants. And right now these sets do not go to MK 12. Without set gear the only viable option is fleet. Which leads to this
Watch out for me sometime ;-) It's an entertaining build, done for fun to start but works nicely overall. People aim for MK XII as it's the biggest number, but it's not always best with a well thought out build.


Quote:
Originally Posted by outlaw51825 View Post

In this case i specifically mean fleet weapons which are quite frankly from a multipurpose aspect the best weapons you can get your hands on depending on your spec/combat style. Fleet shields hold their own against Maco and i havent seen elite of the other mods to gauge how good deflectors and engines would be.
I'll confess Deflectors and Engines lose me, every time, I go for set batches - it's just easier IMO. That said I do still hold that Fleet Space weapons are basically 'meh' they're nice, but they're certainly not the best. The [DMG] mods really let them down. The shields might be alright, but as an STFer I need the MACO or Omega sets

The ground weapons, armor and shields are pretty awesome - that I will conceed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by outlaw51825 View Post

This is where you misunderstand me. Right now the dilithium sinks are massive and the sources are poor. Massive sinks ARENT always a bad thing. But when you force a player to choose between helping his fleet, helping himself, and getting a new ship all at the same time? In a process that can take close to a year to setttle itself out? That isnt a good thing. A player should not be forced to choose between personal advancement and fleet advancement. Only a fully fitted fleet can avoid that choice of which there are NONE and probably wont be for awhile. They need to find a way around this. Or people are just going to give up because it will become a JOB to play this game.
No, I don't feel I misunderstand you, I may have made my point poorly though - my point is simply that Cryptic have a certain pace that they desire you to go through things at, it's a necessity of development time, financial income, and overall game economy. This said I think I'd like to see loads more ways to earn Dilithium, and then maybe ways to increase the refinement could come from there. I'd welcome a Dilithium Refinery holding for fleet starbases, where players can deposit unrefined dilithium into, and the fleet holding would automatically refine a certain amount per day which would only be available for fleet leaders to allocate to projects, that way the refinery cap would only be an issue for Zen conversion and personal spending, and players could pour unrefined dilithium into the starbase at their hearts content. Put this with new sources of dilithium and it might just work.
Volunteer Community Moderator for the Star Trek Online Forums. My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment.
If you wish to speak to someone on the community team, file a 'forums and website' support ticket here, as we are not able to respond to PMs regarding moderation inquiries.
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