Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 318
# 11
10-25-2012, 07:21 AM
Before the regent, there may have been some reason to make a fleet excelsior at some point.
But now with the Regent you will never see a fleet excelsior as that ship would step all over the market segment that would buy a Regent.

Also the idea that an ensign engi is useless will disappear as we see more pyro sci builds with the season 7 gear. In the Excel Retro vs a pyro orb weaver the only thing that lets my Excel win every time is I can choose to run a tac team or an engi team to focus on shields or hull. So vs a plasma dot build you can use the Large hull heal to stay ahead of their damage.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 75
# 12
10-25-2012, 07:56 AM
Well it looks like yreodred who is smoking to much!!!!! The Excelior class ship was the back bone for the federation for many years and i really cant see why they cant buff her up a little when most ships get a re-fit or modification at some point in there life span so why not do it for the Excelsior Class, Look at Bridge Comander and you will see many varients of that class of ship. Also Just look at the enterprise and how old she got!!!!! Its a joke and insult not to make her look better and im well pee'd off that they havent done anything for that ship class as thats the only ship i like and use so please keep threads like this going so the people at the top of STO can see it and finely get there finger out and do something for the players who love this ship!!!!!
Captain
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 2,237
# 13
10-25-2012, 10:02 AM
I'm still new to the game, but I plan ... plan! ... on flying the Excelsior-R for my endgame and I 'm going to make it work for me regardless if there is better out there. And my current main is Science ... I've got to make that work out for me and any teams ... Anyways, I think the boat is beautiful and I'd prefer to use it sooner than later. Patience is a virtue it seems.
Kathryn S. Beringer - The Dawn Patrol

Solaris build - Veritatum Liquido Cernene
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,063
# 14
10-25-2012, 11:29 AM
A few things.

1. The Excelsior was a "line ship," yes. It was also a cannon fodder ship. Except for the Lakota, and even then the Defiant had it on the ropes. IIRC the episode the Lakota appeared in, although it took a nasty chunk out of the Defiant, by the end of the battle the only thing the Lakota had going for it were quantum torpedoes (the first ever mention of them, where they were treated as some kind of god weapon).

2. To be perfectly frank, I hope there is NOT a fleet Excelsior unless it does not stomp all over the other ships' niches. Unfortunately the simple fact of the matter is that it is a 130 year old ship. Myself, I have no problem whatsoever with having an ancient ship T5. I do have a problem with it OUTDOING "modern" ships as opposed to being on par with them, and the Excelsior was the most tactical cruiser until the Regent, which is a role that it is arguably far too old to actually competently perform in.

3. It is usually this point where people bring up things like the B-52. These are ancient designs that keep kicking. The thing of that is that the B-52 is, so far as I know, limited to certain mission profiles; I recall reading that most B-52 missions had to have the sky already cleared of fighters to be able to operate effectively, which apparently is not the case where more modern bombers are involved. I am not an expert, merely quoting what I read, but that's true.

While I'd love a boost to the agility of the Regent, I know why it isn't there - so the Excel can have its own niche. And that it does - an agile cruiser with tactical leanings, and with enough speed to be able to be the ship of choice for the cannon cruiser niche for the Federation. That it outperformed more modern ships so grossly in such a high-demand area (tactical cruiser - like it or not the cruiser is probably the most popular ship type, even among tacs) was rather silly to begin with.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,912
# 15
10-25-2012, 11:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by red01999 View Post
1. The Excelsior was a "line ship," yes. It was also a cannon fodder ship. Except for the Lakota, and even then the Defiant had it on the ropes. IIRC the episode the Lakota appeared in, although it took a nasty chunk out of the Defiant, by the end of the battle the only thing the Lakota had going for it were quantum torpedoes (the first ever mention of them, where they were treated as some kind of god weapon).
I know you're not interested but the Excelsior has 30 phaser banks, had the Lakota used more than 3 of those the Defiant would have been toast with little to no damage to the Lakota, add the 4 quantum launchers she had (2 per end) then the Defiant would have been spacedust.

if you're going to use the Defiant vs Lakota argument then please do your research at least.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,333
# 16
10-25-2012, 11:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hicks451 View Post
Well it looks like yreodred who is smoking to much!!!!! The Excelior class ship was the back bone for the federation for many years and i really cant see why they cant buff her up a little when most ships get a re-fit or modification at some point in there life span so why not do it for the Excelsior Class, Look at Bridge Comander and you will see many varients of that class of ship. Also Just look at the enterprise and how old she got!!!!! Its a joke and insult not to make her look better and im well pee'd off that they havent done anything for that ship class as thats the only ship i like and use so please keep threads like this going so the people at the top of STO can see it and finely get there finger out and do something for the players who love this ship!!!!!
Theres no need to insult Yreo, or any other person here. While he and I differ in opinion from time to time, one can disagree much better in the arena of ideas than the arena of insults.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 983
# 17
10-26-2012, 09:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hereticknight085 View Post

Anyways, back on topic. I personally rather dislike the excelsior design. In completely honesty I dislike the design of most federation ships. I mean, seriously? A SAUCER??? I don't see ANY reason for that particular design. At all. To speak of. And having the nacelles out on pylons? Something that critical sticking out on those little spindly things (even on your vaunted galaxy those things were skinny as hell)?? It's like saying: Here's our primary power matrix unit, just shoot a few times and blow it off. Cuz you schelak the nacelles of a ship, suddenly their engines are crippled. In one fell swoop. Fed ships functionally speaking, terrible designs. Except for the Defiant. THAT little ship was excellently designed. Small, compact, no unnecessary crap on it. Actually now that I think about it, it's probably the only federation design that doesn't make me cringe when I think about functionality (course this is the same mind that cringes when he sees anything that doesn't have it's main command center buried deep inside the center of the ship behind layers of armor and decks... probably why covenant cruisers from halo are my fave design as functionality goes).
To understand Fed ship design, you have to go all the way back to Matt Jeffries in 1964 sketching out what a space ship would look like. Flying saucers were basically synonymous with space ships at the time, so they started with that. They also decided it seemed logical that these powerful faster-than-light engines would be in some way radioactive (nuclear fears also big in the 60's!), so they would have to be out away from the crew. So, Jeffries added three cylindrical projections attached by pylons to the saucer. Eventually, the upper two were moved from attaching to the saucer, to being attached to the lower cylinder, and there you have the basic layout of the Enterprise.

While canon would eventually seem to establish that the nacelles weren't harmful to the crew, as multiple times we'd see people working inside them, the design is what it is. All future designs, especially any slated to be named Enterprise have to pay homage. Alternate explanations are given in sources like the TNG tech manual that have the nacelles positioned for optimal warp field efficiency relative to the overall structure of the ship. This is also supported by the variable wings on the Intrepid-class, which while not obvious in the actual show, were supposed to adjust their position depending on speed and maneuvering requirements.

The Defiant is unique among capital ships, but not among small craft. While larger ships tend to have outboard nacelles, smaller craft like shuttles have them pulled in close or entirely internal. The Defiant's uniquely compact structure may be what allows its nacelles to pull in so close. This also seems to be true of low performance ships like freighters and transports, which almost never have visible nacelles (Tuffli).

So, yes, while having the nacelles away from the rest of the ship does make them somewhat vulnerable, it may be necessary to achieve the high performance design goals of a starship (at least with Fed technology, other species may vary). Also, generally you are protected by your shields. With Trek-era weaponry, when your shields go down, you're SOL anyway.

Also, Excelsior, possibly my favorite ship design. There are very few facts when it comes to aesthetics, it's pretty much 100% opinion.
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 406
# 18
10-26-2012, 09:46 AM
It should be noted that the original designs had most of the engine equipment isolated to the nacelles, whereas the movies moved much of this into the interior of the ship.

In TOS, the Engineering Section was actually at the front of the impulse engines on the primary hull (that is the impulse drive behind the grillwork in Engineering), and about the only part of the matter-antimatter reactor system that was inside the hull was the dilithium matrix (probably due to the need to manually work on that part on a regular basis). Indeed, there was at least one episode where the Enterprise was almost forced to jettison the warp nacelles to prevent the destruction of the ship from a runaway matter-antimatter reaction.

When the movies came along, the designers brought the Engineering section to the upper part of the Secondary hull, and put almost everything but the actual warp field generation equipment inside the ship. While it no doubt was more for eye-candy ("ooooo....plasma tubes!") than actual reason, it did possibly offer better access for repairs and maintenance. However, as seen quite often in TNG, the perils of putting your warp core -inside- the hull of your ship are pretty obvious (who in their right mind puts the matter-antimatter core -right in the middle of your Engineering control spaces where your crew is standing-???).

All that aside, it can be surmised that placing the warp field generators away from the hull of your ship is a good idea when you will be generating high-power warp fields, as anything that can warp space will probably do nasty things to the hull of your ship. In the case of some ships (Defiant) the need to protect the warp coils from damage takes priority over the danger of exposure to the warp field by crew and ship, and it can be assumed the drives on such ships are very closely monitored and have special shielding to help drop the risks. Even so, it's almost always obvious that the warp engines are still isolated from the hull, even if they are directly in contact with it.

Of course, civilian ships don't need high-powered drives, and alien cultures don't necessarily have the same consideration for safety that the Federation (read: Terran) engineers do. So, not all ships in existance use nacelles, or of such size.

As far as the saucer goes, it's worth noting that a saucer shape is a good natural shape for atmospheric flight, while also offering optimal design for internal organization. It's not unreasonable that a part of the ship meant to be the primary inhabited part of the ship and an emergency lifeboat for the entire crew might end up a saucer. Certainly, it's a very good combat shape that optimizes firing arcs while minimizing target profile to incoming shots from the equatorial direction.

All in all, in my opinion, the classic Constitution-type design is actually one of the better thought-out ship hulls in Sci-Fi for what it was designed to do.

Last edited by danqueller; 10-26-2012 at 09:49 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,553
# 19
10-26-2012, 11:37 PM
Still don't like it. I mean it makes sense that you would want your "let's make a hole in physics" generating field units to be away from the ship, but at least put them on something that doesn't look like a hit from a sneeze will snap it off. And as for a saucer, yes, it's a good design, but only from the horizontal. From the vertical, it's like a giant target. There are multiple examples in the show and in games and other things where the saucer get's blasted from above or below and has a hole drilled right through it.

However the hole in my argument is as such: All the ships that have that design are not combat ships. They are exploration ships. The reason the Defiant is designed as such is because it was designed to be in a fight or two or thirty and be ok. Hence why it was designed as such.

But you have to admit, having the bridge where it is on the excel, galaxy, constellation, constitution, and even the sovereign is just tantamount to suicide. I mean, it's there, in the dead center on the top deck. It's as exposed as possible. In fact there are multiple instances of the bridge of one of those ships getting shot. You don't ever see the control center of a covie cruiser getting blasted. It's in the dead center of the ship (actually a little forward, don't want to be too close to the primary plasma reactor), underneath dozens of layers of armored decks and an extremely thick outer hull. And you never see any damage to it as a result of an external source. THAT is good ship design to me. But different universe, so oh wells lol.
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Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,395
# 20
10-27-2012, 03:22 AM
Excel is still by far the strongest Fed-side non-lockbox cruiser IMHO, only falls off at high-level play because she's not the best team healer. She was my first real ship and I still love her, nothing else quite captures the balance between firepower, survivability and crowd control, all while looking gorgeous like she does.

(I also find it hilarious that anyone would compare a beautiful piece of clean, art deco engineering like the Excel with a fat curvy loveboat like the Galaxy. But I digress).

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