Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 855
# 451
10-24-2012, 06:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dastahl View Post
But I would hardly call some of the comments in this thread as feedback, it is more like personal threats or bashing me - to which I say - ok I get it - there is frustration - but the game will go on and we will continue to improve.

That does not rule out changes that might be made based on feedback, it just says hate me all you want. I can take it. I have the benefit of seeing the reality behind the scenes to know the truth that the game is doing really well.

At the end of the day, this team cares about STO and still spend many hours a day working to make it better and more fun for everyone. Not everyone has the same play style or the same feedback. We have to weigh everything and make a measure and calculated decision. So far we've done pretty good if you go by the success of the game versus how some would like to portray our efforts.
If I hated you, Cryptic or the game, I would have left looooong ago. I've spent more money on this game, than ANY other game, and i've been playing games for 20 or so years now. Including for the past 8 years, MMOs which are generally on a monthly-subscription system.

I have plenty of concerns about changes going into Season 7, and I believe I have voiced them quite well in this thread. But I also have the benefit of hindsight and past history, in knowing how things have progressed in regards to things landing on Tribble -> Player feedback -> Patch going to Holodeck. And in more cases than not, content on Tribble tends to go to Holodeck regardless of player feedback. It was a slippery slope back when the first "+1" ship was launched (Rhode Island), and that slope has only gotten worse since F2P.

I remember vividly the massive negative feedback about adding the +1 Rhode Island, and yet the Rhode Island went to Holodeck in pretty much the same state as it once was on Tribble. Now you've got plenty of threads on the forum at this very moment, with a lot of negative feedback on various Dilithium changes coming to Season 7 (including the DOff "up grind", of converting 5 lower DOffs into 1 higher). I suspect despite the massive negative feedback, DOffs will still cost alot more in Season 7 than they do now.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 987
# 452
10-24-2012, 06:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dastahl View Post
No one is ignoring feedback. Season 7 isn't fully on TRIBBLE yet - we are letting you know ahead of time about changes coming so that we can gather feedback.

But I would hardly call some of the comments in this thread as feedback, it is more like personal threats or bashing me - to which I say - ok I get it - there is frustration - but the game will go on and we will continue to improve.

That does not rule out changes that might be made based on feedback, it just says hate me all you want. I can take it. I have the benefit of seeing the reality behind the scenes to know the truth that the game is doing really well.

At the end of the day, this team cares about STO and still spend many hours a day working to make it better and more fun for everyone. Not everyone has the same play style or the same feedback. We have to weigh everything and make a measure and calculated decision. So far we've done pretty good if you go by the success of the game versus how some would like to portray our efforts.
I'm one of the people who analyzes things very calmly, and for the most part, Season 7 looks awesome.

Its just the massive uptick in dil Costs that concerns me. 108k Dilithium per Mk 12 set is staggering. That's 13.5 Character days of refinement, which is a lot. Also the fact the Duty Officer exchanger takes 5 Blue Doffs and 5000 Dil for a random purple? Nobody will use that. That's way too much money to get a random doff from a List of mostly Sub Par Doffs.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 860
# 453
10-24-2012, 06:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dastahl View Post
All of the Dilithium inputs for Starbases are being evaluated and scrutinized so that we make the right balance change for Season 7. We agree that Dilithium costs for higher tiers of Starbases are too high and we will adjust them, just like we have done previously.
it's not only higher teirs that are to expensive , i have just got the teir 2 com array being built but 108k seems a little ott tbh . seeing all my fleet members left for bigger fleets i am the only one left , at the rate things are going i will be forced to scrap the fleet wasting billions of ec's already spent as well as all the dilithium used

Last edited by usscapital; 10-24-2012 at 06:21 PM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,982
# 454
10-24-2012, 06:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by badname834854 View Post
Stahl ~


I have been playing since beta. But I must say, these changes are simply TOO much, TOO quickly. We are losing TOO much just to get the certainty of STF gear. Add to that we wont have access to our pre-earned stuff intil T-5, which is the end of the road anyways? This is too much. It NEEDS to be toned sown. A lot.

There are too many changes you are adding to the soup at one time. You run the risk of cooking a mess.

If I didn't knwo any better, I would assume there are some internal metrics going on that is pushing you guys to shove all these changes down our collective throats too quick. I mean, in the history of ST:O, have you see such collective anger? I haven't. Is someone at Cryptic concerend that they won't get a bonus if they don't hit projected revenue?

Please. Tone it down. You can't give candy to a baby and take it away.

Don't make the players pull a Khan and DY-100 away from the game.

-ABM
I wish the hell They would put one of these in the game... even if it's in a Lock-box.
...... DaveyNY ...STO Forum Member since February - 2009
..............Star Trek Fan since Thursday Sept. 8th, 1966
There are No Longer any STO Veterans... We're Just People who have Played the Game for the last 4.5 years.
I Really Do Miss the little TOP Button at the bottom of the threads.
Career Officer
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 953
# 455
10-24-2012, 06:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dastahl View Post
We can take the heat and have done so since launch - by owning up to our metecritic score and continually improving. No one can say the game hasn't improved greatly in the last two years. It absolutely has and will continue to do so.

Season 7 is another of example of us taking something that wasn't well done in the first few months after launch and making it much better and closer to what it should have been. Not only that but it is just one small part of Season 7 in general. New Romulus is the name of Season 7 because that is really what it is all about.

The comments in this thread are what they are, but STO will continue on and will continue to succeed due to the love and dedication of the team and the support of the many many players that absolutely love what we've done with the game.
For sure the Luck System of STF's has caused a lot of friction and I don't think any of the playerbase enjoyed that, I know I certainly didn't it became frustrating.

But lets be honest it's something that could have been done without introducing a large Dilitium sink into it. One could have put an XP sink into it instead for example. Alongside the increase in Dilitium requirements due to the embassy, fleet vanity projects the Doff grinder and the reduction in Dilithium for STF's Season 7 is really more about fundamentally changing the Dilithium economy and affecting Zen sales.

There is a lot about this game that I like, there is also a lot that seems unfinished, some of the Episode content still has bugs and there is so much more potential in this game and the Star Trek IP than is currently being fulfilled. I am not talking about new playable races I am talking about adding more of a Star Trek feel. I would dearly love to see Player Exploration assignments that last for 20+ hours of game time and seek to emulate the experience of scientific exploration and strange new civilizations that is common to nearly all of the Star Trek Franchise, done though a matrix of "random dungeon creation" anyone who played NWN will know what that concept is.

Last edited by thisisoverlord; 10-24-2012 at 06:24 PM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 208
# 456
10-24-2012, 06:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dastahl View Post
- Once we have the final conversion numbers established, we will be updating TRIBBLE with the conversion script so that any character can log in individually and see the amount of Omega Marks, Borg Neural Processors, and Dilithium they will be receiving. This way you'll see exactly what each character will get and you can decide to cash out for Dilithium or not before Season 7.
Will this Dilithium appear in a crate for us to open so we know exactly how much we got or will it jump into our Dilithium pile? Will this Dilithium be refined (please) or Ore?

The crates that we get will contain Omega Marks, Dilithium and Borg Processors.

Quote:
Since the Reputation system is similar to the Fleet System, projects have a set time limit to completion. We calculate that even if you have all the items necessary as inputs for all the projects, the time needed to complete all projects is going to be around 2 months.
Each project is gated by a day and a half timer. How will people be "skipping" the system if they all have to wait the same amount of time for projects to complete? It sounds more like this is designed so that we have to work to get access to the unlocks and keep doing Borg content long enough to unlock more currency that we already did the work to get.

I will still have to wait a few days to get through Tier 1 Omega Reputation even if my Crates opened immediately. I can also do one Elite STF with optional and have all the marks I need for Tier 1 Reputation...

I really don't see the point in taking my money that I went through 300 STFs to earn only to give it back when I will need it least.

Quote:
All existing gear you've purchased via STFs will remain on your character. The Omega set is not going away at all. There are some slight changes happening to the Borg Space set in that you only will need 3 set pieces to get all 4 of the set bonuses, and a second additional set (2 weapons and a console) is being introduced that uses the console that is being taken out of the original set (but the bonus still remains). So the only change is that the set is getting better. Again - these changes will be available on Tribble soon for those that want to see it in action.
The gentleman was asking about the Anti-Borg weapons, not the sets. The weapons with a {Borg} proc. Will these be updated with the new weapons available in the rep store or will Borg proc weapons remain as is?

A side question to that: Is there a way (or could you add a way) to trade in older Borg proc weapons and older gear (Mk X, Mk XI, etc) for Omega marks/Borg Processors/Dilithium?

Quote:
Statistically speaking, this is untrue.

Even starting from scratch, maxing out the new Reputation system will take you approximately 60% less STF runs than the chances you have of getting the last gear drop you need. This is what we meant by the system is far more favorable for most players. When the drop rate is so low, you'd have to run STFs "X" number of times for a likely chance to get the tech drop.

In the new system, the number of STF runs needed to get that last piece of gear is reduced down to a definite cost that has a finite number of STF runs to obtain which is 60% less than what it would have been previously in the random odds table.

Sure you might get lucky and get the last piece of gear you need in the next two months, but the odds are against you in the current reward table. You are more likely to get the last piece of gear you need by leveling up the Rep system than leaving it to chance.
It's a sure thing yes, but realistically statistics are easily manipulated. For instance, are you looking statistically at a player who plays one STF per day? 2? 5? 10?

I started intensely playing STFs (4+ a day) and got the entire set of Omega for Space and Ground in the last month. Mk XII both sides.

Quote:
We are also acknowledging that this is another big currency conversion and so unlike the previous Dilithium conversion, we are attempting to provide more information earlier so that players are more informed about what is happening and can have some options before the change hits.
We all appreciate the openness regarding this conversion. I think, bluntly, we got seriously boned in the Dilithium conversion to the point that some people I knew quit and haven't returned. It was a disgusting slap in the face. I'm very happy to see you guys learned what not to do when it comes to such things.

Quote:
So yes - Dilithium is a time currency.
Don't you have to have some kind of standard for a currency though to give it it's value? Dilithium I've never thought of as a time-based currency because unless you do X and Y in Z time you'll get different amounts of currency. I can get 8000 Dilithium in 1 hour or 3 hours depending on what I'm doing to get it. It's not like me playing the game just gives me Dilithium on a per-hour basis like a salary at a job. So I can see why many don't think of it as a true time-based currency.

Quote:
Ok, just checked with the designers and here is what they've done for Season 7

- Normal STFs now reward 240 Dilithium + Omega Marks
- Elite STFs now reward 480 Dilithium + Omega Marks + Borg Commodity for MKXII Sets
- Fleet Actions now reward 960 Dilithium (1st place Gold gets 2x this = 1920 Dilithium)

In Season 7, Fleet Actions will now become the best source of Dilithium between the two types of Events.

In addition Fleet Actions will now have better rewards in general
Gold = Purple + 1920 Dilithium
Silver = Purple + 960 Dilithium
Bronze = Blue + 960 Dilithium
All others = Green + 960 Dilithium

In addition, at max level in the Omega Fleet a repetable project unlocks that converts Omega Marks to Dilithium at a rate of 50 marks to 500 dilithium or thereabouts.

The new Red Alert daily in the New Romulus Sector also rewards 480 Dilithium in addition to Rom marks.

All of this could change before Season 7 hits, but that is what the current plan is.
Now that you've slashed the amount of Dilithium Elite STFs give in half and removed the odds of getting gear from them (even a random grab bag of Blues and Purples *sadpanda*) does this mean the timer will be reduced on STFs from an hour to 30 min?

Quote:
The comments in this thread are what they are, but STO will continue on and will continue to succeed due to the love and dedication of the team and the support of the many many players that absolutely love what we've done with the game.
While I agree that the game is vastly improved and I feel your team has done an immense amount of work, don't get too big headed . Keep in minds ST fans are by default rather clingy to all things ST and since this is the only ST we can get at any given time we'll stick with it. You have a built in, hardcore, fan base with this IP. You'd have to try darn hard to NOT be at least a little successful. Again this isn't to say you guys aren't doing great work and it's not to say I'm not super psyched you escaped Zynga before it started crumbling.

Quote:
Understood and we'll evaluate this once all of Season 7 is on TRIBBLE and we have the TRIBBLE stress test weekend and evaluate the final feedback once everyone can play all the systems at once.
In response to your response: Would it be possible tofr the system to assign a "cost" to player deaths in Fleet Actions? Let the system take your Damage done in the match + Healing done - Deaths you've had = Your Fleet Action score?

Quote:
All of the Dilithium inputs for Starbases are being evaluated and scrutinized so that we make the right balance change for Season 7. We agree that Dilithium costs for higher tiers of Starbases are too high and we will adjust them, just like we have done previously.
Slight tangent from Blog 8: CHEF cost? Bartender is possibly being looked at but the Chef requires 2000 rare drop foods...

More BOFF inputs and more other inputs please. More inputs for Featured Projects aside from Dilithium. More stat affecting projects? The embassy can offer Fleet members +1 DOFF assignment slot at each tier, any chance of perhaps a Borg Starbase project that gives us a MACO tactical specialist that buffs Plasma Resistance by 5% and Damage vs Borg by 5% and requires say a bunch of Borg Nano-suppressants and other stuff like those crafty bits I have way too many of from Defera?
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,642
# 457
10-24-2012, 06:22 PM
I am not being apologetic but Mr Stahl is listening and responding. It's now 6:20pm on the West coast and as far as I know he is still on this thread. He could have walked out by now.

Anyways - I do agree that this 1st 2nd, 3rd place thing is going to be a disaster in anything team and could lead to failure and break-down of the missions/fleet actions as everyone trys to win. It's going to get ugly in the missions - I can't even imagine the annomosity that players will harbour towards other players.

Last edited by levi3; 10-24-2012 at 06:24 PM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,400
# 458
10-24-2012, 06:24 PM
@Thread: I understand why people are frustrated but bashing someone like dstahl is not only likely to have the opposite desired results, it's also rude, immature and unnecessary.

Your feedback can be negative, constructive and intelligent at the same time.



Quote:
Originally Posted by dastahl View Post
Ok, just checked with the designers and here is what they've done for Season 7

- Normal STFs now reward 240 Dilithium + Omega Marks
- Elite STFs now reward 480 Dilithium + Omega Marks + Borg Commodity for MKXII Sets
Ouch.

Dan, why are STFs being so heavily penalized?

It's going to cost approximately 484,000 dilithium to get to T5 rep, buy 8 [Borg] weapons & buy 3 set pieces.

Why de-incentivize the very content that you are adding a dilithium sink to by reducing the dilithium rewards?

For one thing, ground rewards as they stand now are not commensurate with the amount of time investment they require vs. space.

Another is that 480 is really a pittance for an Elite STF.


Here are some solo missions that reward 480:

  • Rescue Deferi Captives (this mission takes under 3 minutes)
  • History 102: Alpha Quadrant Midterm (takes about 30s)
  • Explore Strange New Worlds 1440 (takes about 15 minutes)
  • The above can be combined with Chart the B'tran cluster for a total of 2880 dilithium
  • Traelus System Repair 480 (takes under 5 minutes)
There are at least another 3-4 missions like this.



There is no reason that an Elite STF that requires 5 players to first get together and complete should reward the same or less missions than what's listed above




In fact you can earn 500 dilithium not even being at your PC through the DOFF system or 2K dilithium through the contraband turn in!!

Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 96
# 459
10-24-2012, 06:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dastahl View Post
Ok, just checked with the designers and here is what they've done for Season 7

- Normal STFs now reward 240 Dilithium + Omega Marks
- Elite STFs now reward 480 Dilithium + Omega Marks + Borg Commodity for MKXII Sets
- Fleet Actions now reward 960 Dilithium (1st place Gold gets 2x this = 1920 Dilithium)

In Season 7, Fleet Actions will now become the best source of Dilithium between the two types of Events.

In addition Fleet Actions will now have better rewards in general
Gold = Purple + 1920 Dilithium
Silver = Purple + 960 Dilithium
Bronze = Blue + 960 Dilithium
All others = Green + 960 Dilithium

In addition, at max level in the Omega Fleet a repetable project unlocks that converts Omega Marks to Dilithium at a rate of 50 marks to 500 dilithium or thereabouts.

The new Red Alert daily in the New Romulus Sector also rewards 480 Dilithium in addition to Rom marks.

All of this could change before Season 7 hits, but that is what the current plan is.


Are you going to at least do a pass over the fleet actions and the daily quests for them then? The respawn rates in the gorn fleet action are wonky (the frigate section has repops too high, the cruisers you have to wait for repops I think its, or maybe it's battleships in the gorn and cruisers in the klingon one, but either way, playing through these once or twice and try and do the daily mission and it's obvious what's wrong with them. ) The dailies are odd because they have you going after objectives that are out of the way of the main objective, and that distraction from central focus makes the dailies more of a burden than a bonus.

Reducing dilithium on the daily STF's is a bad plan (or at least, reducing it to half of a fleet action). Why would you do them except to grind rep, and once you have rep you'd never go back? New players will have a perpetually harder time of it and longer queues.

Obviously the gold/silver thing is foolish and you'll have to drop the plan or tanks and healers are going to get the pitchforks, and rightfully so. The current first place thing is amusing, but not actually a sustainable system that you'd want to seriously value. You have a role, do that role. At cryptic you clearly haven't got the tech to figure out who is doing their role the best relative to other people doing different roles, it's a nonsense comparison at best, and it doesn't do anyone any favours to try and make the entire game about doing max dps/HPS/etc. Granted, max DPS is my specialty, but that should not be the goal for the whole game. STF's need a minimum capability test because while you can solve 'probes' a lot of different ways, you need to be demonstrably able to do at least one of those ways.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 204
# 460
10-24-2012, 06:27 PM
I think the reason behind the dilithium changes is to lower the supply and raise the demand because on the Holodeck the price to buy zen has dropped and Cryptic as a business company is now losing money. Just like the changes to the lockboxes less people are buying them and thus Cryptic loses money. I think this is the reason behind changing the dilthium amounts especially with STFs they know that they are popular and fleet actions are not so why not change the rewards so the demand goes up and the supply goes down.

Join date: January 2010
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