Career Officer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 752
# 101
11-29-2012, 07:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jellico1 View Post
I'n all strict and regular cannon Starfleet has never
Built or used (fighters)

Fighters I'n all star trek cannon are expendable
Resources just like firing a torpedo

Starfleet has never used it's personal this way

The Klingons never used them either but there
Racial beliefs would allow them too if they wished

And remember STO is soft/ soft serve cannon
So they can do almost anything they want to
if you are going strictly by canon, the KDF has no fighters that I can recall. the federation has fighters but a carrier has never been seen.

there is an argument that the fighters seen in DS9 were launched from the larger ships like the galaxies, at the expense of their runabouts and shuttles. either that or the peregrines have a warp capability like an X-wing, but that has never been seen and they don't seem to have warp core breaches
No to T5 Constitution DEAR GOD NO MORE FED CLOAK THREADS No to T5 Miranda No to Arc Yes to a Federation Frigate Pet
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,764
# 102
11-29-2012, 07:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hereticknight085 View Post
Nope. Unless it comes with free Orion strippers (and a pheromone blocker), AND a free booze bar with your own complimentary Guinan, still not interested.
It has Sprinkles........
Richard Hamilton (1975-2014)
goodbye good friend. We will see you in the DMZ in the sky oneday, save a shot for us.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,046
# 103
11-29-2012, 07:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by annemarie30 View Post
there is an argument that the fighters seen in DS9 were launched from the larger ships like the galaxies, at the expense of their runabouts and shuttles. either that or the peregrines have a warp capability like an X-wing, but that has never been seen and they don't seem to have warp core breaches
Well the strange thing about the Peregrines is that whenever a fleet was sent out, the fighters were in formation with the bigger ships.
This makes absolutely no sense if they require transportation...unless the fleet gets underway, THEN recovers the fighters and goes to warp.
Also the Maquis used the exact same type of ships and unless they were only operating within the same solar system the entire time, these ships (that are the size of a Boeing 737) must be FTL-capable.
And they have those blue-glowing thingies with the red thingies at the front the larger ships use for Warp as well.

http://www.st-intelligence.com/ship_...Per_slide1.jpg
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 628
# 104
11-29-2012, 08:12 AM
It's a matter of speed and range. Shuttles are all warp capable, but most of the time they're not used as independent craft because of a reduced operational range and lower warp speeds than their parent ships can attain. The same would hold true for fighters, but fighter doctrine is probably to launch them outside of combat because you have to drop shields for them launch and land.

And all this is, of course, ignoring the effect production and vfx budgets would have had on decisions to actually show these things.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,046
# 105
11-29-2012, 08:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by canis36 View Post
It's a matter of speed and range. Shuttles are all warp capable, but most of the time they're not used as independent craft because of a reduced operational range and lower warp speeds than their parent ships can attain. The same would hold true for fighters, but fighter doctrine is probably to launch them outside of combat because you have to drop shields for them launch and land.

And all this is, of course, ignoring the effect production and vfx budgets would have had on decisions to actually show these things.
But it makes no sense to launch them before you even leave.

Unless there is no actual need to carry them inside your hangar bays to bring them with you.
Just cluster a bunch of them around each capital ship and carry them inside the ship's warp field.
It's not something we haven't seen before, the Galaxy could carry its saucer in a detatched state inside the warp field.
On "Enterprise", Columbia managed to carry her own sister ship inside her own field.
Think 200 years further and think about the enormous size difference between a Galaxy and a bunch of fighters.

And we know from the DS9TM that Runabouts (that are actually smaller than Peregrines) have an operational range of 2 weeks.
That's more than enough range for what we've seen them do with these fighters.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 628
# 106
11-29-2012, 08:42 AM
On the operation range of Runabouts vs. Fighters - you have to take into consideration mission profiles.

Runabouts were not designed as combatant craft though they are fairly well armed for a ship their size. Their primary purpose is as utility craft and so their operational range will be designed and stated with that purpose in mind. Fighters are combat craft and combat is hard on a ship whether it's depletion of fuel from high output engines running at max, expended munitions, battle damage, or the drain of running high powered weapons. It's operation range will be designed and stated with that in mind.

In other words, even if a fighter might be able to operate in non-combat conditions for longer period of time than even a runabout it's operational range is going to be looked at from a combat perspective because that's what it's designed and built to do. Similarly a Runabout may have an even lower operation range than a fighter when looked at from a combat perspective because it's not designed and built for combat but it's operational range will be stated as being higher than a fighter's because it's intended for non-combat uses.

As to your complaint of them launching fighters before leaving - was there ever any indication of how far away from the battle they were? I could see them launching before leaving if it was only a few hours away. That actually makes sense. If they stop just outside the system then there's a very good chance that the enemy's fleet will warp in and pound them to paste while they're launching fighters. If it's days away though...yeah no real sense in launching that early.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,046
# 107
11-29-2012, 08:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by canis36 View Post
As to your complaint of them launching fighters before leaving - was there ever any indication of how far away from the battle they were? I could see them launching before leaving if it was only a few hours away. That actually makes sense. If they stop just outside the system then there's a very good chance that the enemy's fleet will warp in and pound them to paste while they're launching fighters. If it's days away though...yeah no real sense in launching that early.
I don't think they ever made the timeframe clear.
We do know for example that in "Favor the Bold", when they send Morn to to warn Starfleet the Dominion is 1 week away from blowing the minefield and we know Sisko and the Defiant arrive just as they actually do it.
Unless Morn took forever to warn them, they must have been underway for quite some time.
And we also know that by the time they encounter the Dominion Fleet sent to intercept them, 11 ships had to leave the formation due to engine damage.
Unless those ships were in an incredibly bad state in the first place this makes absolutely no sense.
And there is something else to consider:
Let's assume you're right and a fighter's maximum sustainable Warp speed is pretty low...we know time was crucial...the fighters must have slowed them down when they were deployed the whole time...sorry I got nothing there.
Unless the fighters were really pulled along in the bigger ship's waprfield I think leaving the fighers out is the stupidest thing the could do, particularly since they seemed to have had several minutes after they detected the enemy fleet to get their fighters ready...

Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 628
# 108
11-29-2012, 09:26 AM
Couple of things about "Favor the Bold":

1) Using Morn as a courier meant that the fleet had less than a week to get there as it would have taken Morn some time to get to a position where he could relay the information, and the fleet had to prepare. Being generous and saying it only took Morn a few hours to get the information to them they'd have, at most (I'd estimate ) six days to reach the station due to logistical issues mobilizing the fleet.

2) The week figure was an estimate the fleet could have arrived half-way through the given period or a month later and it would still be "just in time" depending on whether the Cardassians were lucky or not. Using it as an absolute time-frame isn't a good idea, though it's understandable as that's the only real time-reference we have.

Looking at "top speeds" when I talk about those I'm talking about cruising speeds which is a ship's leisurely power-conserving speeds. Most non-cruiser (a.k.a. combat) ships have cruising speeds of between Warp 6 and 7 according to Memory Alpha (where it lists them anyway) and "sprint" speeds of around Warp 8-9. However, these are "safe" practices that keep the engines in good condition and fuel consumption more or less efficient. If you're willing to burn fuel, overstress your engines, and potentially fly your ship to pieces you can just keep feeding power into your engines and attain speeds far faster than is considered safe or even possible by the designers (possibly up to Warp 9.999 even). It's a classic Sci-Fi thing (and has been done in Trek on a few occassions though I can't recall absolute numbers being given).

There's also the fact that the screen shots of the fleet on Memory Alpha look like stock footage which means that the writers likely never even made such considerations.
Commander
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 460
# 109
12-13-2012, 09:42 PM
I'm okay with a fed cruiser/carrier ship. Heck the Tactical Odyssey with its Aqurius Destroyer practically is one, especially if you max out boarding party as well.

Just don't call it a flight deck cruiser, call it something different.

I have a feeling the K'vort which people suggest maybe the kdf annverisary ship might end up being a Raptor/Carrier. Just a guess.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 245
# 110
12-13-2012, 11:22 PM
Quote:
I'n all strict and regular cannon Starfleet has never
Built or used (fighters)
http://s12.postimage.org/fzaw817zh/f...hemaquisii.jpg

http://www.ditl.org/gpns/GPeregrine2.jpg

http://ufplanets.com/novasimm/applic...grineclass.jpg

http://www.st-v-sw.net/images/Trek/S...inebottpha.jpg

Feds don't have fighters?

Quote:
If you look closely using freeze frame those ships were
Were much larger than fighters bigger than runabouts
http://www.st-intelligence.com/ship_...Per_slide1.jpg

You mean like this freeze-frame where you can clearly see a single pilot in the cockpit of a single-seat fighter?

That ship is nowhere near the size of a Danube. Hell, I'd say it's smaller then a Type 11 Shuttle..and it's most certainly smaller then the Scout data piloted in Insurrection and the Raider used by the Maquis..

Sorry, man. Feds have fighters.

No, Feds don't need anymore carriers.
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