Lieutenant
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 95
# 61
10-31-2012, 10:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hereticknight085 View Post
I really don't see why you have an issue with a d'deridex. That particular D'deridex is a special one. With borg technology. So naturally, it's like Donatra's Scimitar. It doesn't play by the same rules we do. If it did it would be too easy.

So stop complaining when you run up against an enemy that you can't just face-roll half asleep that has the ability to possibly kill you.


Quote:
Originally Posted by decker03 View Post
P.S. To add to it further, I've leveld a fed character not long ago and if I remember correctly there are 3 named "boss" D'deridex Warbirds during the Romulan campaign. I can't rembember any special power putting them ahead of common D'deridex. They are stronger and have more hitpoints, that's it. NPC torpedoes in STO are usually a bit stronger than player torpedoes to counter the laughable amount of damage said NPCs are dealing with their energy weapons. That's because NPC ships usually run a standard 50 in all subsystem settings and thus won't deal any meaningful damage.
You are both wrong.

1) the named D'deridex in this case does not use Borg tech at all. So there is no reason for any 'special' abilities.

2) when I played it again yesterday I had to basically kill it three times because the first two times I got it down to 15% hull it warped away back to the energy shield on Hobus I, which since ships cannot enter warp while under attack that is a special ability that is not supposed to happen. then when I used evasive to boost my speed to get to it in 4 seconds it had healed from 15% hull with no shields left to 100% hull and full shields, again something that no combination of abilities can pull off... so it is a programmed cheat ability.
Vice Admiral Ross
and others too numerous to name...
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,009
# 62
10-31-2012, 11:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ericandrewross View Post
You are both wrong.

1) the named D'deridex in this case does not use Borg tech at all. So there is no reason for any 'special' abilities.

2) when I played it again yesterday I had to basically kill it three times because the first two times I got it down to 15% hull it warped away back to the energy shield on Hobus I, which since ships cannot enter warp while under attack that is a special ability that is not supposed to happen. then when I used evasive to boost my speed to get to it in 4 seconds it had healed from 15% hull with no shields left to 100% hull and full shields, again something that no combination of abilities can pull off... so it is a programmed cheat ability.
1) nope it does not use borg tech, thats for sure.

2) that is actually a scripted event that is designed like that...you have to fight it 2 times. This is not cheating NPCs, thats just poor mission design.

and yes your subsystems got deactivated by Viral matrix which is a standard thing on all d'deridex.
even if you don't believe it, it still is the truth.
Go pro or go home
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 41
# 63
10-31-2012, 11:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ericandrewross View Post
2) when I played it again yesterday I had to basically kill it three times because the first two times I got it down to 15% hull it warped away back to the energy shield on Hobus I, which since ships cannot enter warp while under attack that is a special ability that is not supposed to happen. then when I used evasive to boost my speed to get to it in 4 seconds it had healed from 15% hull with no shields left to 100% hull and full shields, again something that no combination of abilities can pull off... so it is a programmed cheat ability.
Not an ability. It's "forced" warped/cloaked when the script reaches that hull damage trigger. It just executed a function in the script is all to continue the story. The reset command function in the script is run, resetting it to 100% status, if something causes it to reach the reset command that's what it'll do. Again, not an ability, not a cheat. It has to be forced this way so they can carve in a story and so there are no "accidents" that break the story.

But as far as cheating AI is concerned in general, it is something that happens in a lot of games, and it helps make a challenge, something that is difficult to find in this game most of the time I'm afriad.
---
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Sincerely,
The Cube Assimilating Your Ship Right Now
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 154
# 64
10-31-2012, 02:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ericandrewross View Post
2) when I played it again yesterday I had to basically kill it three times because the first two times I got it down to 15% hull it warped away back to the energy shield on Hobus I, which since ships cannot enter warp while under attack that is a special ability that is not supposed to happen. then when I used evasive to boost my speed to get to it in 4 seconds it had healed from 15% hull with no shields left to 100% hull and full shields, again something that no combination of abilities can pull off... so it is a programmed cheat ability.
Really? The script to ensure that the ship is still in one piece for further story progession is your cheat? You must be kidding. I'm sorry but is this your first computer game ever?

Granted that's not very elegant but that's exactly what happens in games when an important NPC has to appear later. That or the NPC has uber abilities/tech/whatever to make them indestructable, in which case you could scream cheat. They just can't be killed yet and basically respawn again or in the D'deridex' case cloak for a short time. Man you talked about some magic super-duper torpedoes and subsystem disables out of nowhere and that's all?
-----------------------
decker999
Join Date: Aug 2010
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 598
# 65
10-31-2012, 06:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrtshead View Post
Post 17 in this very thread lays some of this out, which I note you responded to by asserting that in those cases canon was only a guideline, and not a certain rule. So, yeah, you've already effectively conceded that there is no 'canon' basis for your argument.

Also, as an aside, you can't keep throwing in mentions about how game balance is destroyed/escorts are OP/etc. on the one hand, and then refuse to defend your claims by resorting to 'This thread is only about torpedoes, so nothing else matters'. Everyone knows this is part of your campaign to nerf escorts and buff cruisers, so stop acting like talking about you ideas in that context is unwarranted.




My point.<=======================>You.

Darn! You missed it!



"Conflict of interest"? Really? Why? Because I have an opinion about game balance that differs from yours? Are you seriously going to claim that you are an objective party here? You keep acting like anyone who can't see how the current, balanced game is manifestly unfair to cruisers must be willfully ignoring the obvious, while at the same time completely failing to see how, from another perspective, what you are asking for is: "Cruisers get more of everything, and escorts get less, because I like cruisers, I hate escorts, and I can't make cruisers work now"

Long story short, if I'm disqualified because of a 'conflict of interest', well, right back at you buddy.



With a few notable exceptions, I don't consider it unfortunate that other people play this game. Your mileage may vary, of course.



Uh, they don't? I mean seriously, what are you talking about? Ker'rat the rewards go to whoever gets the most points (which means a combination of scanning nodes and killing the hubs), Fleet events like No Win and Blockade clearly reward teams with healing/CC as well as damage, Pvp 'rewards' (such as they are) go to a combination of healing/dmg, STF drops are purely a matter of luck, and so on.



Because, of course, only escorts can do STFs, only players in escorts are allowed to join fleets and use the fleet stores, only escorts can buy dilithium weapons, and even if cruisers do somehow get a purple weapon off the exchange, they can't slot them.

Or, you know, none of that is true.

Look, I get that Starbase 24/Gorn minefields rewards kills because most of the objectives are 'kill X of *shiptype*', but those aren't the only parts of the game, and they aren't even close to the 'best' ways to get end-game gear.



Yeah, PVP is not dominated by escorts. PVP is dominated by teams that match up nearly invulnerable heal-boats with spike damage Escorts and sci vessels that use disables to set a ship up for the kill. So, teamwork. Absent teamwork, in a free-for-all scrum, the cruisers should carry the day, since they have the heals/tank to last.



Forgive me for reading between the lines, but:

You want cannons to do less damage, and beams to do more
You want escorts to get less of a bonus from torpedo spread powers, and cruisers to get more
You want cruisers to be more durable, and escorts to be less durable
You want a special modifier on cruisers to increase their damage
You think any resistance to your ideas is part of a 'escort conspiracy', led by the devs, and aiming to invalidate the most popular ship type in the game
etc. etc.

So, yeah, I see a pretty clear bias, even if you don't (and even if you've never said "I love cruisers and hate escorts).
Yes, a conflict of interest from you, not because of your opinion but for your lack of objectivity. You already admitted that you are worried about the escort loosing it's standing in the game. Well, as it stands, it is the most overpowered, unchallenged class of ships in the game, because it is able to play 3 roles at once. It deals indefensible DPS, can Tank with the the best of them now with Borg Kits, and can affectively use science powers that cripple, other players. Most offensive science powers are mostly minimal unless you use the Lt Cmdr or Commander level which are only on science ships. Why did the Devs put subnuke on a Luetinant level? Subnuke is devistating to players because it stops all buffs and heals, and before you can recover, you are dead from the cannon fire. Why are escorts allowed to use such a devistating power when they already have shield stripping cannons?
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 598
# 66
10-31-2012, 06:28 PM
When I am compairing NPC torpedo DPS to player's, I'm not talking about the STF NPC's because it is expected for those to have boost hp, and power levels, to make it hard for you to beat. I am comparing regular NPC's from Fleet Actions, Fleet Starbase Missions, and your daily missions. Gorn minus their dreadnought, don't fire spreads of topedos your way. The mostly fire single photon topedos at you, yet they do alot of damage to your shields. Why can't the Devs bump up player's torpedo DPS level to do that same thing? It would help ships who can't arm cannons to be able to enjoy the kills, and rewards from PVP and PVE.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 405
# 67
10-31-2012, 08:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexindcobra View Post
Yes, a conflict of interest from you, not because of your opinion but for your lack of objectivity. You already admitted that you are worried about the escort loosing it's standing in the game.
At this point I'm not sure if you are a troll, or what. I did NOT admit that I wasn't objective what I said was that you were ASSUMING that (thereby attempting to imply that your assumption was false), and moreover that even if you were right that wasn't objective, it doesn't matter for two reasons:

1)You are at least as agenda driven and non-objective as you claim I am, so that door swings both ways.

2)Objectivity (or lack thereof) in terms of relative powers of ships is immaterial in terms of determining whether or not 'canon' is a useful yardstick (which was the context of that discussion)

Now, to be clear, my contention is that I am NOT biased, I absolutely agree that escorts tank too much, I just don't understand why the solution to that problem is to increase cruiser DPS, especially if YOU already feel that escort DPS is 'indefensible'. It just seems like given your proposals that it's not so much that DPS is too high, it's just that it's escorts that are doing the damage.



Quote:
Originally Posted by alexindcobra View Post
...and can affectively use science powers that cripple, other players. Most offensive science powers are mostly minimal unless you use the Lt Cmdr or Commander level which are only on science ships.
Again, I'm not sure how this is an 'escort' problem? Cruisers are just as capable of using Sci powers (as a whole) as escorts are (if not more-so, due to typically higher Aux levels). If your argument is that sci powers should be looked at, I am behind that 100%. The fact that sci are powers are all screwy has nothing to do with escorts though. It is also largely incoherent to accuse escorts of being able to 'cripple' other ships on the one hand, and then dismiss sci powers as 'minimal' on the other (unless your understanding of the word 'offensive' is 'damage dealing', in which case I think you've misunderstood the value of disables like VM).

Quote:
Originally Posted by alexindcobra View Post
Why did the Devs put subnuke on a Luetinant level? Subnuke is devistating to players because it stops all buffs and heals, and before you can recover, you are dead from the cannon fire. Why are escorts allowed to use such a devistating power when they already have shield stripping cannons?
This here is simply... nonsense. Subnuke is NOT an escort issue, at all, as has already been explained. Moreover, Sci in an Escort my be powerful, but the trade-off is that ship is not doing the 'indefensible' DPS that you are concerned with, because its cannons aren't backed up with AP:A, and GDF.

Ultimately, yes, an Escort CAN do all of the roles in the game, but it CAN'T do all of them at once, there are trade-offs, and the only role the escort is 'best' at is damage dealing. This is intentional, and obvious. If you feel like doing damage is the most important factor in doing well and having fun in this game, then instead of trying to break the design of the game, try instead playing the ships that were designed for that role.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 598
# 68
11-02-2012, 05:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrtshead View Post
At this point I'm not sure if you are a troll, or what. I did NOT admit that I wasn't objective what I said was that you were ASSUMING that (thereby attempting to imply that your assumption was false), and moreover that even if you were right that wasn't objective, it doesn't matter for two reasons:

1)You are at least as agenda driven and non-objective as you claim I am, so that door swings both ways.

2)Objectivity (or lack thereof) in terms of relative powers of ships is immaterial in terms of determining whether or not 'canon' is a useful yardstick (which was the context of that discussion)

Now, to be clear, my contention is that I am NOT biased, I absolutely agree that escorts tank too much, I just don't understand why the solution to that problem is to increase cruiser DPS, especially if YOU already feel that escort DPS is 'indefensible'. It just seems like given your proposals that it's not so much that DPS is too high, it's just that it's escorts that are doing the damage.

I don't understand how you can missread my statement, when its right there in front of you. I said you amitted worrying about the escorts standing.



Again, I'm not sure how this is an 'escort' problem? Cruisers are just as capable of using Sci powers (as a whole) as escorts are (if not more-so, due to typically higher Aux levels). If your argument is that sci powers should be looked at, I am behind that 100%. The fact that sci are powers are all screwy has nothing to do with escorts though. It is also largely incoherent to accuse escorts of being able to 'cripple' other ships on the one hand, and then dismiss sci powers as 'minimal' on the other (unless your understanding of the word 'offensive' is 'damage dealing', in which case I think you've misunderstood the value of disables like VM).



This here is simply... nonsense. Subnuke is NOT an escort issue, at all, as has already been explained. Moreover, Sci in an Escort my be powerful, but the trade-off is that ship is not doing the 'indefensible' DPS that you are concerned with, because its cannons aren't backed up with AP:A, and GDF.

Ultimately, yes, an Escort CAN do all of the roles in the game, but it CAN'T do all of them at once, there are trade-offs, and the only role the escort is 'best' at is damage dealing. This is intentional, and obvious. If you feel like doing damage is the most important factor in doing well and having fun in this game, then instead of trying to break the design of the game, try instead playing the ships that were designed for that role.

I'm not here to make you see my point because you are only looking from an escort perspective. Maybe you don't PVP againts PVP Fleets, or maybe you don't even play agianst other people. Maybe you don't play along side people, because you don't see the rewards that escorts get over all others ship classes. Just because you don't see something doesn't mean it doesn't happen. The fact that you don't even pay attention to detail in a paragraph statement, because of your misquoting my statement in front of your face, show that you most likely don't pay attention to detail in the game either.

There is not reward for Tanking or supporting, so you can not sit there and say science and cruisers have it made in this game.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,764
# 69
11-02-2012, 07:02 AM
SubNuke is a Science Captains ability and can be used with any ship becuase the power follows the Character class not the vessel class.

SubNuke DOffs are character based and can be put on any vessel in the game, including escorts.

Escorts have the lowest ability to use Science BOff powers ingame, with little exception (MVA escort, the Chimera destroyer on the fedside / Peghu Destroyer, Kren timeship on the KDF side) the maximum Tier of Science powers they can use is Tier 2.

That means an Escort can choose to go Shield and hull heals or use CC powers. Thier choices are Hazard Emitters I & II, Jam Sensors I & II, Mask Energy Signature I & II,
Polarize Hull I & II, Science Team I & II, Tachyon Beam I & II, Tractor Beam I & II,
Transfer Shield Strength I & II, Charged Particle Burst I & II, Energy Siphon I & II,
Feedback Pulse I & II, Photonic Officer I & II, Tractor Beam Repulsors I & II,
Scramble Sensors I & II and Tyken's Rift I.

Things anyone can do to increase survival.
1) Cycling two Emergency Power to Subsystem abilities,
2) Using Scienc Team or Hazzard Emitters to heal themselves,
3) Using BFI DOffs for the heal,
4) Using ATB DOffs for the CD decrease
5) Choose the Elusive Character trait for an extra +10% bonus defense

Things that mainly only an escort can do to increase survival
1) Cycling twin ApO to keep defenses and movement high.
2) Enjoy a +10% bonus defense for moving in combat

Wow! Those poor Cruisers are so outdone by those "special" Escort-only Defensive powers.
If only a Cruiser could use two EPTx powers for maximum shield health, BFI doffs, ATB doffs or any of these things to increase thier survival. Oh-woe-is-them.

/sarcasm over this silly fracking cry session off.
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goodbye good friend. We will see you in the DMZ in the sky oneday, save a shot for us.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,694
# 70
11-02-2012, 07:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitemepwe View Post
SubNuke is a Science Captains ability and can be used with any ship becuase the power follows the Character class not the vessel class.

SubNuke DOffs are character based and can be put on any vessel in the game, including escorts.

Escorts have the lowest ability to use Science BOff powers ingame, with little exception (MVA escort, the Chimera destroyer on the fedside / Peghu Destroyer, Kren timeship on the KDF side) the maximum Tier of Science powers they can use is Tier 2.

That means an Escort can choose to go Shield and hull heals or use CC powers. Thier choices are Hazard Emitters I & II, Jam Sensors I & II, Mask Energy Signature I & II,
Polarize Hull I & II, Science Team I & II, Tachyon Beam I & II, Tractor Beam I & II,
Transfer Shield Strength I & II, Charged Particle Burst I & II, Energy Siphon I & II,
Feedback Pulse I & II, Photonic Officer I & II, Tractor Beam Repulsors I & II,
Scramble Sensors I & II and Tyken's Rift I.

Things anyone can do to increase survival.
1) Cycling two Emergency Power to Subsystem abilities,
2) Using Scienc Team or Hazzard Emitters to heal themselves,
3) Using BFI DOffs for the heal,
4) Using ATB DOffs for the CD decrease
5) Choose the Elusive Character trait for an extra +10% bonus defense

Things that mainly only an escort can do to increase survival
1) Cycling twin ApO to keep defenses and movement high.
2) Enjoy a +10% bonus defense for moving in combat

Wow! Those poor Cruisers are so outdone by those "special" Escort-only Defensive powers.
If only a Cruiser could use two EPTx powers for maximum shield health, BFI doffs, ATB doffs or any of these things to increase thier survival. Oh-woe-is-them.

/sarcasm over this silly fracking cry session off.
Whoa there! You're talkin' CRAZY!!! Everyone KNOWS cruisers are meant to stand at max range and totally PWN their targets with their giant beam arrays and their impenetrable shields and armor! What you say takes WAY too much work! It should be easier!!!!!!
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