Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,593
# 71
11-02-2012, 07:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by skyranger1414 View Post
cruisers are meant to stand at max range and totally PWN their targets
Firstly that's silly (I know, that's the point) but still

What if I don't want to sit at max range and fail?
Wait... that's fine, I'll sit at point blank range and be in everyone's way

But I don't want to be in everyone's way...
I'll sit at mid range and under-perform...

But I don't want to under-perform, everyone tells me I'm crap and to L2P...

And there's the problem. As a cruiser pilot I should expect best results from mid range but you don't get that you should get 99% from your beams flying a cruiser at mid range (3-7km if you ask me) with the same drop off level at 10Km and diminishing returns from 3km and closer

This would give cruisers room to maneuver and monitor the surrounding area while in combat also freeing up the 3km range in which escorts perform best it would also go some way to sorting the issue of cruiser turn rate as they wouldn't need it buffed to perform well at that distance.

Thus 2 problems are solved, it also gives healboats the ability to do their bit without sacrificing as much damage output. so, ideas on how we can improve on that?
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,845
# 72
11-02-2012, 08:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by skyranger1414 View Post
Whoa there! You're talkin' CRAZY!!! It should be easier!!!!!!
Thats why we have key binds and a whole thread on the subject of how to make them work for you. Literally all of it can be semi-automated into a keybind.

Quote:
Everyone KNOWS cruisers are meant to stand at max range and totally PWN their targets with their giant beam arrays and their impenetrable shields and armor! What you say takes WAY too much work!
A little hard work is good for the soul.
Leonard Nimoy, Spock.....

R.I.P
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,845
# 73
11-02-2012, 08:20 AM
[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by adamkafei View Post
And there's the problem. As a cruiser pilot I should expect best results from mid range but you don't get that you should get 99% from your beams flying a cruiser at mid range (3-7km if you ask me) with the same drop off level at 10Km and diminishing returns from 3km and closer
Beam Arrays and Dual Beam banks both share the same mechanics. Allowing for a margin of error in the data, then, it appears that beam weapons do maximum damage up to 1km, and then start to drop by around 4% damage per km, down to producing about 65% of total damage at 10km.

Cannons, Dual Cannons, Dual Heavy Cannons and Turrets all share the same mechanics as well. Once again allowing for a margin of error in the data, it appears that cannon weapons do maximum damage up to 2km then start to drop by around 8% damage per km, down to producing about 35% damage at 10km.

It seems beams are exactly designed to do what you wish them to do, supply better damage over a longer range.
Leonard Nimoy, Spock.....

R.I.P
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 505
# 74
11-02-2012, 08:29 AM
This is a long post, and absent something crazy, my last attempt at a reasoned dialogue on this topic. Enjoy!

Quote:
Originally Posted by alexindcobra View Post
I'm not here to make you see my point because you are only looking from an escort perspective. Maybe you don't PVP againts PVP Fleets, or maybe you don't even play agianst other people. Maybe you don't play along side people, because you don't see the rewards that escorts get over all others ship classes. Just because you don't see something doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

I do pvp, quite a lot, in fact. Actually, you and I were both on the same team for two straight area matches like two days ago. If you'll remember, both of those times, the team with the most escorts (ours) lost. Absent coordination, cruisers/sci beat escorts because they have the heals to outlast the damage the escorts throw out. In organized pvp play, you will typically see teams with only 2 escorts, because the expectation is those two escorts will coordinate their attack on whichever target the sci ship(s) has (have)weakened/subnuked, while the cruiser(s) heal. If escorts were as OP as you claim, the premade PvP teams would be all tac/escort all the time. Pro-tip - they're not (at least not the ones I've ever run into in the queues).

To your last line here, I would say that just because you perceive something, doesn't make it true.


Quote:
Originally Posted by alexindcobra View Post
The fact that you don't even pay attention to detail in a paragraph statement, because of your misquoting my statement in front of your face, show that you most likely don't pay attention to detail in the game either.
I'll be honest - this accusation annoys me more than a little. How on earth am I 'misquoting' you? Can you give me an example? I have tried to be more than clear about what I felt you were saying, and how I was responding to it. If I 'misquoted' you on something, please, by all means, clarify your meaning. As for understanding of game mechanics, I'm not sure in what way there is a connection between my posting style and that.

In fact, I take the time to fact check my posts before I make them, and you'll note that I don't go back and edit, so if I am caught in a factual error, I have to own up to it. Go ahead and find one, and I will apologize. My rule is, if I'm not sure on a 'fact', then I won't post it as such.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alexindcobra View Post
There is not reward for Tanking or supporting, so you can not sit there and say science and cruisers have it made in this game.
PHEW! Okay, we finally come to the crux of the issue. This sentence here explains EVERYTHING about your perception of the game, I think. The problem here is NOT that the GAME only values damage dealing, its that YOU only value the 'rewards' from dealing damage.

Here's another way of looking at things ('another' in this context should be taken to mean 'alternative', not necessarily 'superior'):

The reward for tanking is simply that you don't blow up. Some people don't find it fun to explode. Some people find it immersion breaking to 'die' and then respawn and continue the same mission. For those people, the 'reward' for tanking is that they have more fun. From a practical perspective, some people also find that even if a cruiser is doing less instantaneous damage, when you adjust for the time it takes for an escort to respawn and fly back to the fight, cruisers are actually doing MORE damage per second, and thus contributing more to completing the mission.

The reward for healing a teammate is threefold. First, and perhaps most significant, is the social reward you get from helping someone out. Even if it is just a simple 'ty' in team chat after I throw someone a heal, I appreciate that minor social aspect of the game. Second, by healing a teammate who might otherwise have died and respawned, I have increased my team's effective DPS, and thus contributed to success of the mission/pvp victory. Third, by keeping a teammate alive, I have increased the odds that said teammate will be able to return the favor when I need the support, thus increasing my own personal success as well as my team's. Oh, I guess the fourth reward is that healing counts just as much as damage done in terms of PvP 'rewards', but those are so minor they hardly bear mentioning.

The reward for using sci powers is again manyfold: Some players enjoy the feeling of winning with 'brains' rather than brawn. For some, it feels more 'Trek' to disable an enemy with some random technobabble power, for others, they enjoy imagining the frustration of the other captain as his ship is crippled and he's rendered powerless to fight back. In either case, for a certain player, science is more 'fun'.

In more practical terms, Sci's crowd control abilities can be a godsend. Ever have someone pop a node early in ISE? Bet you really wished someone had a Grav well to throw to slow down/stop those nanite spheres! Alternately, enemies that are scrambled or have systems disabled are easier to kill, and aren't nearly as effective at doing damage back (this is true in both PvP and PvE). A sci ship spamming Beam target Subsystem powers, scramble sensors, and Viral Matrix can be INFURIATING in pvp, as they are great at disrupting the other team's coordination as well as making enemy ships vulnerable to attack by escorts/cruisers.

So, yeah, I can see plenty of rewards for the gameplay styles that you seem to overlook. If you don't think those rewards are 'worth it', that's fine - but just because you don't value them, doesn't mean they don't exist. Again, if you feel like the most fun/valuable thing you can do in the game is blow things up, then run an escort, or figure out how to spec a cruiser to do what you want (it can be done).

Finally, just to nip in the bud, I anticipate you skipping over most of what I just wrote and going straight to something like "The only rewards that matter in this game are things like purple items, and only escorts get those", my pre-emptive response is as follows:

First, seriously, (re)read what I wrote above - there ARE legitimate (if intangible) rewards to other play styles, even if you don't value them.

Second, I already demonstrated how your claim about items being 'only' available to escorts was false, as the ONLY parts of the game that can be said to base rewards primarily on Damage Done are the fleet actions, and those aren't even close to the best way to earn end-game gear.

Third, the fact that sometimes escorts are 'faster' at completing missions strikes me as a minimal advantage, at best. This only matters if you view leveling as a race, and/or you find the gameplay to be so unrewarding in general that you want it to be over with as soon as possible. If you actually enjoy playing, then there are certainly rewards to be had by playing a little more slowly in a way that makes you happier than just a straight dps run.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,686
# 75
11-02-2012, 12:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrtshead View Post
Second, I already demonstrated how your claim about items being 'only' available to escorts was false, as the ONLY parts of the game that can be said to base rewards primarily on Damage Done are the fleet actions, and those aren't even close to the best way to earn end-game gear.
Just out of curiosity, what do you see as the best way to earn end game gear?
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Why the Devs can't make PvE content harder. <--- DR proved me wrong!
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 505
# 76
11-02-2012, 12:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hereticknight085 View Post
Just out of curiosity, what do you see as the best way to earn end game gear?
That's a fair question - for consoles, it's pretty much the DOFF crafting mission or buying them off the exchange - hunting for purple Mk XII console drops seems tedious at best to me.

For Deflectors, shields, and engines, Elite STFs are the only way to get the best set items, and Advanced/Elite fleet equipment is competitive as well (possibly even stronger with a narrowly focused build, but the set items are 'cooler').

For weapons, it's a bit of a toss-up. STF weapons are basically a waste against non-borg, so, while currently easy to get I'm not sure they 'count' as end-game gear. Fleet Advanced weapons (and possibly Elite, when we see Tier 5 fabricators come on line) are, IMO, very solid for PvE play, although the focus on +dmg makes them less attractive for PvP. Obviously, in any world the PvP preferred ACCx3 weapons are hard to come by - although they do drop from Elite STFs occasionally, which is why those are still my preferred mode of farming. Finally, for some people, the phased tetryon or polarized disruptors are best, which I would argue makes the exchange a decent source of endgame weapons.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 598
# 77
11-03-2012, 01:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrtshead View Post
This is a long post, and absent something crazy, my last attempt at a reasoned dialogue on this topic. Enjoy!




I do pvp, quite a lot, in fact. Actually, you and I were both on the same team for two straight area matches like two days ago. If you'll remember, both of those times, the team with the most escorts (ours) lost. Absent coordination, cruisers/sci beat escorts because they have the heals to outlast the damage the escorts throw out. In organized pvp play, you will typically see teams with only 2 escorts, because the expectation is those two escorts will coordinate their attack on whichever target the sci ship(s) has (have)weakened/subnuked, while the cruiser(s) heal. If escorts were as OP as you claim, the premade PvP teams would be all tac/escort all the time. Pro-tip - they're not (at least not the ones I've ever run into in the queues).

To your last line here, I would say that just because you perceive something, doesn't make it true.




I'll be honest - this accusation annoys me more than a little. How on earth am I 'misquoting' you? Can you give me an example? I have tried to be more than clear about what I felt you were saying, and how I was responding to it. If I 'misquoted' you on something, please, by all means, clarify your meaning. As for understanding of game mechanics, I'm not sure in what way there is a connection between my posting style and that.

In fact, I take the time to fact check my posts before I make them, and you'll note that I don't go back and edit, so if I am caught in a factual error, I have to own up to it. Go ahead and find one, and I will apologize. My rule is, if I'm not sure on a 'fact', then I won't post it as such.



PHEW! Okay, we finally come to the crux of the issue. This sentence here explains EVERYTHING about your perception of the game, I think. The problem here is NOT that the GAME only values damage dealing, its that YOU only value the 'rewards' from dealing damage.

Here's another way of looking at things ('another' in this context should be taken to mean 'alternative', not necessarily 'superior'):

The reward for tanking is simply that you don't blow up. Some people don't find it fun to explode. Some people find it immersion breaking to 'die' and then respawn and continue the same mission. For those people, the 'reward' for tanking is that they have more fun. From a practical perspective, some people also find that even if a cruiser is doing less instantaneous damage, when you adjust for the time it takes for an escort to respawn and fly back to the fight, cruisers are actually doing MORE damage per second, and thus contributing more to completing the mission.

The reward for healing a teammate is threefold. First, and perhaps most significant, is the social reward you get from helping someone out. Even if it is just a simple 'ty' in team chat after I throw someone a heal, I appreciate that minor social aspect of the game. Second, by healing a teammate who might otherwise have died and respawned, I have increased my team's effective DPS, and thus contributed to success of the mission/pvp victory. Third, by keeping a teammate alive, I have increased the odds that said teammate will be able to return the favor when I need the support, thus increasing my own personal success as well as my team's. Oh, I guess the fourth reward is that healing counts just as much as damage done in terms of PvP 'rewards', but those are so minor they hardly bear mentioning.

The reward for using sci powers is again manyfold: Some players enjoy the feeling of winning with 'brains' rather than brawn. For some, it feels more 'Trek' to disable an enemy with some random technobabble power, for others, they enjoy imagining the frustration of the other captain as his ship is crippled and he's rendered powerless to fight back. In either case, for a certain player, science is more 'fun'.

In more practical terms, Sci's crowd control abilities can be a godsend. Ever have someone pop a node early in ISE? Bet you really wished someone had a Grav well to throw to slow down/stop those nanite spheres! Alternately, enemies that are scrambled or have systems disabled are easier to kill, and aren't nearly as effective at doing damage back (this is true in both PvP and PvE). A sci ship spamming Beam target Subsystem powers, scramble sensors, and Viral Matrix can be INFURIATING in pvp, as they are great at disrupting the other team's coordination as well as making enemy ships vulnerable to attack by escorts/cruisers.

So, yeah, I can see plenty of rewards for the gameplay styles that you seem to overlook. If you don't think those rewards are 'worth it', that's fine - but just because you don't value them, doesn't mean they don't exist. Again, if you feel like the most fun/valuable thing you can do in the game is blow things up, then run an escort, or figure out how to spec a cruiser to do what you want (it can be done).

Finally, just to nip in the bud, I anticipate you skipping over most of what I just wrote and going straight to something like "The only rewards that matter in this game are things like purple items, and only escorts get those", my pre-emptive response is as follows:

First, seriously, (re)read what I wrote above - there ARE legitimate (if intangible) rewards to other play styles, even if you don't value them.

Second, I already demonstrated how your claim about items being 'only' available to escorts was false, as the ONLY parts of the game that can be said to base rewards primarily on Damage Done are the fleet actions, and those aren't even close to the best way to earn end-game gear.

Third, the fact that sometimes escorts are 'faster' at completing missions strikes me as a minimal advantage, at best. This only matters if you view leveling as a race, and/or you find the gameplay to be so unrewarding in general that you want it to be over with as soon as possible. If you actually enjoy playing, then there are certainly rewards to be had by playing a little more slowly in a way that makes you happier than just a straight dps run.
The fact that we were in the same team shows that we were in a put together team. Of course we were going to loose, because the team was incoherent compared to the established team we played against. I can tell you this if our whole team was escorts and I was the only cruiser, I know I was the first target the other team hammered because they know I can't turn, escape, or dish out intimidating damage. Us lossing don't prove or disprove anything because we don't know what our teammates had on their ships and it was obvious they didn't work together by communicating or focusing on same targets. To compare ships, look at a one on one situation. The fact that an escorts can crush shields even while Tac team and reverse polarity is up, and all the cruiser can do is try to heal, but if you are hit with subnuke one time then tanking stops and you are open to death with no recovery. When a cruiser try to pressure an escort, if the escorts shields start to weaken, he will dart off so fast so that the cruiser can't chase him so he can heal himself while out of range. If the all the heals are on cool down, what do you think the cruiser can do to evade an escort? You are too slow to dart off. You can't push him away far enough because escort come with impulse modifiers. Your weapons are too weak to discourage him from sitting in one spot on your hull. If you use Borg kit as a Galaxy cruiser, it diminishes your overal weapons power thus making your DPS less and you won't be able to kill very often. There is only rewards for killing nothing els.

Staying alive while tanking is not a reward, period. Every player wants to be able to earn stuff that they can upgrade or customize their ships with. Science ships are in the middle because alot of new science ships are getting close to escort abilities with being able to arm cannons, high speed engines, and they already can shield tank. DHC's can not be armed on cruisers except for the Dreadnought, thats one out of 20 or more cruisers. Torpedos are weaker comming from cruiser vs escorts because cruisers lack the Tac BOFF levels that boost torpedo power to make a difference. The proves torpedos are no good for cruisers. The only cruiser that get naturely strong weapon power for beams, is the Oddyssey. Thats 1 out of 20 plus cruisers. Where did you disprove what i said? I don't see it.

Trying aquire purple level XII gear is very expensive because they are sold at ridiculous prices on the exchange. The poeple who are selling these gear earned them from Fleet Action missions that reward purple gear if you get first place. I can guarantee you that most of them were escort players. The fact the rewards mostly go to one class of ships for most kills shows a lack of balance in this game.

I don't know what problem you have with making the torpedos better than they are now.

Last edited by alexindcobra; 11-03-2012 at 01:40 PM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,753
# 78
11-03-2012, 02:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitemepwe View Post
Thats why we have key binds and a whole thread on the subject of how to make them work for you. Literally all of it can be semi-automated into a keybind.

A little hard work is good for the soul.

I was being sarcastic. One of my personal pet peeves in STO is that all too often other pug players seem to sit at max range.... even cannon escorts do this! I feel like facepalming and telling them that if someone else is clearly holding aggro... you should get in close and do more damage D'uh!
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 505
# 79
11-03-2012, 05:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexindcobra View Post
The fact that we were in the same team shows that we were in a put together team. Of course we were going to loose, because the team was incoherent compared to the established team we played against. I can tell you this if our whole team was escorts and I was the only cruiser, I know I was the first target the other team hammered because they know I can't turn, escape, or dish out intimidating damage. Us lossing don't prove or disprove anything because we don't know what our teammates had on their ships and it was obvious they didn't work together by communicating or focusing on same targets. To compare ships, look at a one on one situation. The fact that an escorts can crush shields even while Tac team and reverse polarity is up, and all the cruiser can do is try to heal, but if you are hit with subnuke one time then tanking stops and you are open to death with no recovery. When a cruiser try to pressure an escort, if the escorts shields start to weaken, he will dart off so fast so that the cruiser can't chase him so he can heal himself while out of range. If the all the heals are on cool down, what do you think the cruiser can do to evade an escort? You are too slow to dart off. You can't push him away far enough because escort come with impulse modifiers. Your weapons are too weak to discourage him from sitting in one spot on your hull. If you use Borg kit as a Galaxy cruiser, it diminishes your overal weapons power thus making your DPS less and you won't be able to kill very often. There is only rewards for killing nothing els.

Staying alive while tanking is not a reward, period. Every player wants to be able to earn stuff that they can upgrade or customize their ships with. Science ships are in the middle because alot of new science ships are getting close to escort abilities with being able to arm cannons, high speed engines, and they already can shield tank. DHC's can not be armed on cruisers except for the Dreadnought, thats one out of 20 or more cruisers. Torpedos are weaker comming from cruiser vs escorts because cruisers lack the Tac BOFF levels that boost torpedo power to make a difference. The proves torpedos are no good for cruisers. The only cruiser that get naturely strong weapon power for beams, is the Oddyssey. Thats 1 out of 20 plus cruisers. Where did you disprove what i said? I don't see it.
I wouldn't even bother addressing this, but it is full of so much mis-information that I don't want anyone to be misled.

For the pvp stuff... whatever... you and I have very different perceptions of reality, and I'm not interested in engaging with you in a war over what you remember versus what I remember. I will simply say that I remember both matches very differently than you do, and leave it at that.

Here's some stuff, though, that you are being either misleading or objectively wrong about.

1) Escorts can't 'crush shields' while TT and RSP are up - that combo against a cannon spamming escort will result in a near instant full shield heal, and your shields will remain up for the duration, unless you suffer a phaser proc which offlines your shields. That can happen regardless of what kind of ship is shooting you (and, in fact, is MORE likely to happen from a cruiser, since they can mount more energy weapons). So, you know, stop being hyperbolic.

2) Subnuke doesn't mean 'no tanking, no recovery'. Use Sci team, it eliminates the cooldown penalty, and then you are free to resume tanking. The loss of current buffs sucks, but if you are running a reasonable cruiser build, you should have enough backup heals/resists to recover, at least until you can get some team support. Also, this issue is NOT specific to cruisers - subnuke sucks for ANYONE who is tanking.

3) Impulse modifiers have nothing to do with resisting tractor beam repulsors. Repulsors are resisted by powers that resist movement debuffs, as well as the inertial dampeners skill from the sci tree. Also, repulsor strength is dependant both on your graviton generators skill, and current aux powers, and only pushes targets that are (I think) 5km or closer. It is an area control skill, but not intended to 'blast' escorts away from you as an escape plan.

4) Borg set doesn't diminish your weapons power at all, I'm not sure where you are getting that - in fact, the borg assimilated console is currently the best +weapon power item in the game, by a wide margin. If anything, this is the reason why it is getting nerfed - it is a solid buff to both offense and defense, and can be further paired with any shield you like without losing anything but the tractor power.

5) Basic cruisers come with +5 power for all subsystems, including weapons. Add in the borg console mentioned above and you are at +10. Now add energy bonuses from skills, and you are pushing 120 weapons power with an 'offense' power setting. Now use two of your 2-3 Eng ensign slots for Epwer Weapons. Et Viola. You have over 125 weapons power, with basically 100% uptime. It is actually easier to maintain high weapons power on a cruiser than on an escort, because the +10 weapons power the escort gets is more than offset by being able to cycle Epwer weapons on a cruiser with a lower opportunity cost.


Quote:
Originally Posted by alexindcobra View Post
Trying aquire purple level XII gear is very expensive because they are sold at ridiculous prices on the exchange. The poeple who are selling these gear earned them from Fleet Action missions that reward purple gear if you get first place. I can guarantee you that most of them were escort players. The fact the rewards mostly go to one class of ships for most kills shows a lack of balance in this game.
Again, this is basically all manifestly false, as I already posted in response to an earlier question about how I go about getting end game gear. With STF runs, I have never had a problem getting purple loot, and what I can't use I sell on the exchange to buy what I can use. I'm geared up, and I never do Fleet Actions for loot. You are flat wrong on this score. Here's the math:

Space fleet action takes 8-20 ppl, rewards 1 purple item for 10-15 minutes play time (typically)

Space elite STFs takes 5 people, can reward Multiple purple items (most I've seen is 4 in one run, usually see at least one), roughly 10-15 minutes play time.

Right now, STFs are the gear producers for the economy, not fleet actions - and STF rewards are random, not kill based, so, yeah.


Quote:
Originally Posted by alexindcobra View Post
I don't know what problem you have with making the torpedos better than they are now.
I have no problem making torpedoes more interesting, but 'better' is a bit iffy since I think they are already pretty good. Still, I could maybe be convinced to make them stronger across the board.

Oh, that's right, I'm sorry, you meant 'better for cruisers and worse for escorts' because everything with you is in that context. Yeah, that I will always disagree with.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 505
# 80 Oops
11-03-2012, 05:24 PM
Above, I should've said '+10 power escorts get over cruisers' - cruisers get +5, escorts get +15, for a total difference of +10
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