Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 830
# 11
10-26-2012, 10:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kingofsandbox View Post
And yet there it is that pretty combat log.

Pretty pretty combat log.

Not only that, but witnesses to the ship you flew too.

Yeah "way more" meaning what double? Triple? Even at Triple dps, you're setup is still sub par.
There is huge difference between a PvP fight where you die in 30 seconds or whatever it was to an Escort subspace jumping behind you and PvE. The low DPS in that fight was due to around a 30% miss chance from the Escort high defence and being outside weapon arc for most off the fight. All not problems for PvE. It is the same reason I use Dual beam banks for PvE yet that is a bad idea for PvP.

It is not all about high DPS either. When you ignore shields you do not need as much DPS to kill a target so for PvE it?s not subpar and in fact works really well.

Last edited by pottsey5g; 10-26-2012 at 11:01 AM.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 38
# 12
10-26-2012, 11:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pottsey5g View Post
There is huge difference between a PvP fight where you die in 30 seconds or whatever it was to an Escort subspace jumping behind you and PvE. The low DPS in that fight was due to around a 30% miss chance from the Escort high defence and being outside weapon arc for most off the fight. All not problems for PvE.

It is not all about high DPS either. When you ignore shields you do not need as much DPS to kill a target so for PvE it?s not subpar and in fact works really well.
Neither of them subspace jumped. One of them had next to nothing in kinetic resistance and 0 hull heals.

Yes yes it is. High DPS is high dps period. In pve, there are eng cruisers cranking 3500 dps. Tell me just how much faster do you think said cruisers vape targets than your lolbuild? You state that your damage "would double" in lolpve several times. Double of 734 comes up way short. Infact Triple comes up way short.

Everything works in pve. Shuttles with Tricobalts can do ISE if they do it right. Using pve as some sort of benchmark for your ships performance is like winning the special olympics... even if you win, as they say you're still a well you know how the rest goes.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,757
# 13
10-26-2012, 11:10 AM
when i last leveled a character i took the opportunity to use plasma weapons till level cap. not like they are usable when everyone has the stf shields
gateway links-->Norvo Tigan, Telis Latto Ruwon, Sochie Heim, Solana Soleus
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 225
# 14
10-26-2012, 11:36 AM
dps smee ps

you need to think calculus. the instantaneous damage is relevant, the overall dps is never relevant. never.

imagine a wall, one foot high, that traverses 1000 ft. then a monument but one foot long 1000ft high. both have the same surface area.

imagine a craptastic build. you know. 4 dhc +3 turrets, every skill bound to spacebar on infinite rotation. yeah, THAT build.
its nibbler vs the great white.

every bite you take that doesnt get the whole hydra does nothing. take the heads off the beast with fatal damage. minimize the time of delivery and maximize ACTUAL REAL MEANINGFUL DAMAGE.

so lets recap. you, shoot at zombie cruiser for an hour. guy with plasma wepaons does. wow guy with plasma wpns does 20% less shield dmg. woop

me (or insert skill player x) shoot for 2 seconds instantly killing the enemy in a ball of firey mayhem.

the difference being the skill player had a solution to penetrate emergency power to shields and transfer shield strength and base shield power resisntace bonuses= spike

THE ONLY RELEVANT TIMES ARE WHEN THESE POWERS ARE IN EFFECT BECUS THEY ARE ALWAYS IN EFFECT.

and if you wanna go on and on about snb online, go for it, lets see you land anything relevant within that momentary lapse of buffs. and tell me what the difference between plasma dmg to shields would have been, and show me the math where the plasma hull proc was less than the lost dmg from the actual 20% gained from the shield.

and ill tell you, that antiproton is better, even with crappier mark and mods.

oh and btw yeah mwo owns

insane unfollowable rant off
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 830
# 15
10-26-2012, 12:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kingofsandbox View Post
?Yes yes it is. High DPS is high dps period.?
Well you are wrong. For example in PvE I fit 1 torp on my dual beam boat as the torp with spread III will kill some targets faster than higher DPS beams with fire at will. 4 beams is higher DPS but I get a faster kill rate with the torp. It is the same for the trans build it doesn?t matter if the DPS is low if you can kill the target hull before the energy boat has taken down shields. Fights like Donatra's ship are really easy when you can bypass her tough shields and just hit her weak hull.


Quote:
Originally Posted by kingofsandbox View Post
Neither of them subspace jumped. One of them had next to nothing in kinetic resistance and 0 hull heals.
I am 75% sure one of them did subspace jump as thought I heard the sound and he moved from outside my arc to behind me. Perhaps I was wrong and he just moved fast but either way I would have had the same problem in a beam boat. Kinetic resistance and 0 hull heals is irreverent when your main weapons are outside weapon arc and miss due to no ACC against defense.



Quote:
Originally Posted by kingofsandbox View Post
?In pve, there are eng cruisers cranking 3500 dps. Tell me just how much faster do you think said cruisers vape targets than your lolbuild??
You do realize don't you that a PvE beam boat 3500dps cruiser with a 30% miss chance and half the weapons out of arc will do around the same low DPS as I did? Half the weapons out of arc cuts the DPS in half then another 30% dps loss due to 30% miss rate.

As I tried to say before in PvE you do not have half your weapons out of Arc or worry about a 30% miss chance and you can get away with worse turn rates over what you need in PvP. Remove the 30% miss chance and remove the arc problems and my DPS is right up in the K's just like the beam boat. Perhaps a little lower but that's worth it for the AoE and hull damage.

Make fun of my builds as much you as like but I never failed roles like stopping probes getting into the portal, kill fast and never have a problem getting optionals with lots of time left. So what if my setup isn't perfectly optimal. My setup works well and I do not care about changing setups to a style that I do not find fun just to do a mission 30seconds faster. I keep trying beam boats and broadsides and they just do not suit my play style. Dual beams banks are sort of fun though but they have the same problem as torp boats for 1v1 PvP.

As you can see from the screen shot I am performing decent and having fun which is all that matters. http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images...anspashic.jpg/

Last edited by pottsey5g; 10-26-2012 at 12:48 PM.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 38
# 16
10-27-2012, 09:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pottsey5g View Post
Well you are wrong. For example in PvE I fit 1 torp on my dual beam boat as the torp with spread III will kill some targets faster than higher DPS beams with fire at will. 4 beams is higher DPS but I get a faster kill rate with the torp. It is the same for the trans build it doesn?t matter if the DPS is low if you can kill the target hull before the energy boat has taken down shields. Fights like Donatra's ship are really easy when you can bypass her tough shields and just hit her weak hull.



I am 75% sure one of them did subspace jump as thought I heard the sound and he moved from outside my arc to behind me. Perhaps I was wrong and he just moved fast but either way I would have had the same problem in a beam boat. Kinetic resistance and 0 hull heals is irreverent when your main weapons are outside weapon arc and miss due to no ACC against defense.




You do realize don't you that a PvE beam boat 3500dps cruiser with a 30% miss chance and half the weapons out of arc will do around the same low DPS as I did? Half the weapons out of arc cuts the DPS in half then another 30% dps loss due to 30% miss rate.

As I tried to say before in PvE you do not have half your weapons out of Arc or worry about a 30% miss chance and you can get away with worse turn rates over what you need in PvP. Remove the 30% miss chance and remove the arc problems and my DPS is right up in the K's just like the beam boat. Perhaps a little lower but that's worth it for the AoE and hull damage.

Make fun of my builds as much you as like but I never failed roles like stopping probes getting into the portal, kill fast and never have a problem getting optionals with lots of time left. So what if my setup isn't perfectly optimal. My setup works well and I do not care about changing setups to a style that I do not find fun just to do a mission 30seconds faster. I keep trying beam boats and broadsides and they just do not suit my play style. Dual beams banks are sort of fun though but they have the same problem as torp boats for 1v1 PvP.

As you can see from the screen shot I am performing decent and having fun which is all that matters. http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images...anspashic.jpg/
FAW is used for spam clearing. It's not used for DPS you Moron.
Also if you really think your lil fail boat is going to contribute in a High levle pvper team rolling through an STF you're sadly mistaken.

Actually said boat, will do 1300 DPS to a fully hardened full defense scored target in other words a target that had even more damage reduction than the one you shot at with your rpboat. I already tested this. And there was even a combat log entry. That's still almost Double your pathetic score. Compare. 734 to 1300. Your ship Sucks Ass. You again, had Prime Target opp when you scored that 734 dps. 0 hull heals, almost 0 kinetic resistance and you couldn't even get the ship under 55 percent hull. In a full on environment it would have also keeled over in the first five seconds of firing. Compared to a ship that can sustain it's damage, almost permenately, stay moving much faster to maintain a very high defense score, which consequently allows it to actually heal team mates.

Actually the beam boat will have a much easier time maintaining firing arc, especially in a 5v5 Environment. Especially when it comes time to shift targets, due to enemy cross healing. Your ships fat ass on the other hand is going to take an eternity to get moving enough to use your torps again.

You aren't performing decent You are playing against Trash level of players. What matters is your dumb ass keeps insisting that a pve build can keep up with a Pvpers build and frankly it can't. No matter how hard your face rolls that keyboard in hard denial. Your ship has inferior damage. It has inferior healing potential, it has inferior durability.

Your ship wouldn't be fit to scrape the bottom of my shoe.

Last edited by kingofsandbox; 10-27-2012 at 10:01 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 633
# 17
10-27-2012, 11:33 AM
Seriosullyu anyone who's usijg anything but plasma torps on a PVE build is an idiot regardless. They're far more effective in PVE. Better DPS, better THY's, (A LOT better), and a lot better through sheilds. Though a torp oddy is just stupid. And seriouslly. and treble 700DPS n PVE, thats pitiful for a well used torp boat, sorry.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 830
# 18
10-27-2012, 12:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kingofsandbox View Post
?Actually the beam boat will have a much easier time maintaining firing arc, especially in a 5v5 Environment.?
~
No argument from me there from a PvP prospective. Like I said many times mostly in the other thread my build is not an Arena PvP build. My build like many PvE builds fails at arena PvP for the reasons I stated before. But those reasons are not problems in PvE.




Quote:
Originally Posted by kingofsandbox View Post
? Actually said boat, will do 1300 DPS to a fully hardened full defense scored target in other words a target that had even more damage reduction than the one you shot at with your rpboat? ?That's still almost Double your pathetic score. Compare. 734 to 1300.?
You seem to be under the impression 700dps is my normal or average dps. Well you are flat out wrong. 700dps is worse case looking over my logs and my average and normal is much higher. Also that 700dps can kill some targets faster than that beam 1300dps. All depends on the target.




Quote:
Originally Posted by kingofsandbox View Post
?FAW is used for spam clearing. It's not used for DPS you Moron.?
What a polite nice guy you are and I see you failed to understand my post and resorted to calling me names based on your misunderstanding. That and FAW is a DPS skill if its focused on 1 or 2 targets but that is beside the point. It would be nice if you could argue with facts over name calling. I have done lots of tests and DPS is not always king. Sometimes the lower DPS, spike damage setups can kill much faster than just pure high DPS. The setup I posted with 1 torp and 3 beams is lower DPS then 4 beams but the lower DPS setup kills the targets I was against faster. So I am right and what was originally posted about pure DPS being king is wrong. Calling me names is not a valid counter argument to prove me wrong. High DPS is great but sometimes higher DPS does not mean a faster kill. It all depends on the target.



Quote:
Originally Posted by kingofsandbox View Post
? ?Also if you really think your lil fail boat is going to contribute in a High levle pvper team rolling through an STF you're sadly mistaken.?
No I am not mistaken it is you who is being arrogant telling me how my ship performs even though you have no idea what its PvE DPS is, no idea on specs or gear and have never seen it in action in PvE. Yet somehow you act like you know more about how it performs then me. I do high level STF teams all the time and none of them have problems with my setup.

My ship pulls off over 10kdps in short bursts against groups in PvE and generally does single shots at 32k none crit damage, sometimes as high as 40k+ single shots none crit and well over 100k with crits. On top of all that I have spare heals for team mates. Yet apparently to you that is not contributing? I am not saying I have the best most optimal setups out there. But it works and it contributes a lot.



Quote:
Originally Posted by kingofsandbox View Post
?What matters is your dumb ass keeps insisting that a pve build can keep up with a Pvpers build and frankly it can't.?
Is there any reason you are being so rude? What I said was for doing PvE a good PvE build can in theory out damage an ACC PvP build but that PvE build will fail at PvP. I then gave valid reasons for stating that. So instead of name calling perhaps you could try having a decent discussion and posting valid counters points. A quick recap what I said in the other thread was a top end PvE build can keep up with a top end PvP build while doing PvE as they are pretty much identical. The only real difference is in PvE you do not need to worry about turn rate, defense, ACC or missing targets anywhere near as much PvP. So in in PvE you can skip stuff like ACC and swap to higher DPS weapons like 6% crit over x3 ACC. But this fails in PvP as without snare you have a high miss chance. Give me one good reason why a good PvE build cannot match a PvP build for doing PvE? We are not talking about my setup here. I play my setup as I like its style and it works not because it?s the best which it clearly is not.



Quote:
Originally Posted by kingofsandbox View Post
?Your ships fat ass on the other hand is going to take an eternity to get moving enough to use your torps again.?
When I have my spare power in Aux I have a turn rate of 16.6, when I put Aux power to engines I have a turn rate of 18.6 so that is what we call fat ass these days? I am even thinking about using power to Engines for more speed and turn rate. Along with that I have well over 30 turn rate with Evasive maneuvers for short bursts more than enough for PvE. Just how much turn rate do we need now to not be called fat ass? How is that taking an eternity use your torps in PvE?



Quote:
Originally Posted by kingofsandbox View Post
?Your ship Sucks Ass. You again, had Prime Target opp when you scored that 734 dps. 0 hull heals, almost 0 kinetic resistance and you couldn't even get the ship under 55 percent hull.?
But a beam boat under the same situation wouldn?t even have dinted the hull. So are you saying beam boats suck for failing to get under 50% hull?

Prime target opp? I was talking to the first guy when the 2nd guy who came in to watch said ?I want a go at him? or something like that. He then came at me outside my weapon arc and let loose with a lot of fire power while I was sitting stationary not moving and had zero buffs running with low shield power. I was his prime target. That is how he got me down to 27% hull in the first volley or whatever % it was, I know it was low. If I had all my buffs up and was moving he would never would have got my hull downt hat that low in 1 volley. I bet I would have still lost if I was better prepared but that is why I went down to low hull in one volley.



Quote:
Originally Posted by kingofsandbox View Post
?In a full on environment it would have also keeled over in the first five seconds of firing. Compared to a ship that can sustain it's damage, almost permenately, stay moving much faster to maintain a very high defense score, which consequently allows it to actually heal team mates.?
If at my max defense I was to die in 5 seconds then a beam boat would die in 5 seconds. My setups max defense is as high if not higher than beam boats.



Quote:
Originally Posted by kingofsandbox View Post
?You aren't performing decent You are playing against Trash level of players.?
Wow you have no idea who I play against and yet you know they are all trash, impressive. I was also more talking about PvE and performing decent.



Quote:
Originally Posted by kingofsandbox View Post
?It has inferior healing potential, it has inferior durability.?
Please explain how my healing boat that dumps weapon power into Engines and Aux has worse durability and worse healing? I normally fly my PvE setup at full impulse with 125Aux, 125shields and the rest of power into engines, yet you class that as inferior healing potential and durability?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 38
# 19
10-27-2012, 12:27 PM
If it's a problem in Arena it will be a problem in pve. the only difference is pve is so failtastic it's harder to notice the problems with a build.

You have to burn all your heals for yourself to survive, you have to cut throttle to use your loltorps.

If that doesn't make sense to you then you should just uninstall now

You're too stupid for anything but name calling frankly. Your "tests" are hilarious at best.

Dude you just don't get it. Even if you Triple your score it's inferior to ghostys scort. (what do you think magically some how his scort wouldn't do oodles more damage?) to say nothing of even just a beam boat. you're losing over 1k dps to a beam boat in pve. At Triple score it's inferior to a Eng beam boat cruiser with 7 beams. *which is in turn inferior in flat dps to a eng cruiser with 8)

Look you aren't smart enough for the pvp forum Get off of them.

Any "good pve" build is a Trash build compared to a pvp build. A fantastic pvp build will stomp a mud hole in pve and walk it dry and consequently make the pve build look fail tastic by comparison. PvPers have to overcome far higher defenses, far more intelligent opponents, and have to make far better use of CC than any pveer. Our builds do more damage, they heal better, they crowd control better. PvE is a DPS race. in proper pvp everyone has to contribute high damage, or at least incredible CC.

Also you refer to burst damage....and guess what chump, a fed cruiser other than an Excelsior armed with BO2 and 3 don't do Burst Damage well. Escorts, are the kings of Burst. Period. If you're taking a fed cruiser other than the galor, or excelsior into pve and expecting to do burst damage you're doing it wrong.

And yes your opponents are obviously Trash if they can't put you down in under 2 minutes with that LOL build you have.

Also? no single scort would ever have gotten my eng that low. Know why? because he wouldn't be sitting at like 2 speed to try and use lol torpedoes. He'd be moving at 25, with a 73 percent defense score.

Last edited by kingofsandbox; 10-27-2012 at 12:57 PM.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 830
# 20
10-27-2012, 02:21 PM
So yet again you ignore all my questions and parts pointing out why you are wrong and fail to counter away any of my points or explain anything. Why am I not surprised?


Quote:
Originally Posted by kingofsandbox View Post
?you're losing over 1k dps to a beam boat in pve. At Triple score it's inferior to a Eng beam boat cruiser with 7 beams. *which is in turn inferior in flat dps to a eng cruiser with 8)?
Your math is funny, again you are making up numbers and have no idea what you are talking about. You have no idea what my PvE dps is yet you know I have 1k less dps then beams? Very interesting math. Like I said before I can do bursts at up to 10k dps and perhaps more against packed groups of NPC?s which is more than enough for PvE. At the start of a fight against an NPC group I can have up to 36 torpedoes in the air, 12 AoE high damage mines on the enemy with 50% shield pen and batch of lower damage 80% shield pen mines behind me. It?s not the best build in the world but it looks good, is fun to play and works well killing more than fast enough for me. You can lie and make up stuff as much as you like but it doesn?t change the fact it is fun and effective enough for PvE.




Quote:
Originally Posted by kingofsandbox View Post
?If it's a problem in Arena it will be a problem in pve.?
Yet the facts prove opposite to what you say. Yet again you prove you have no idea what you are talking about. One example being dual beam banks with FAW focused in a narrow arc works wonders in PvE out damaging broadsides but that setup is a massive problem in an Arena doing much less dps then broadsides.



Quote:
Originally Posted by kingofsandbox View Post
?You have to burn all your heals for yourself to survive, you have to cut throttle to use your loltorps.?
What? Normally I barely use any heals on myself and I rarely cut my throttle with a turn rate of 17+. Why would I use more heals on myself than any other PvE build? Yet again you have no idea what you are talking about. I have the same or better defense as broadside ships for PvE so there is no reason why I need more heals.



Quote:
Originally Posted by kingofsandbox View Post
?a fed cruiser other than an Excelsior armed with BO2 and 3 don't do Burst Damage well?
Yet you say I do not know what I am talking about when clearly do not to post that. So a none Excelsior cruiser with a turn rate of around 17 with bursts turn of over 30, more hit points then the Excelsior and the same boff layout off the Excelsior can?t do burst damage but the Excelsior can? Wow you really don?t know what you are talking about do you.




Quote:
Originally Posted by kingofsandbox View Post
?And yes your opponents are obviously Trash if they can't put you down in under 2 minutes with that LOL build you have.?
Ok if 70% defense, TT to balance shields, Maco MK XII shield, TTS2, RSP for emergency?s, x2 EptS, 125 shield power, high aux for heals and the usually Eng skills like rotate shields is trash just what do you call a decent or good defense for a cruiser? You also seem to be missing the point it?s not for PvP either. Which I have only said how many times now? I only take it into PvP for fun.




Quote:
Originally Posted by kingofsandbox View Post
?Know why? because he wouldn't be sitting at like 2 speed to try and use lol torpedoes. He'd be moving at 25, with a 73 percent defense score.?
So when I use around a 70% defense score its trash but your eng has around a 70% defense score it?s not trash? Interesting view you have there.



Quote:
Originally Posted by kingofsandbox View Post
?Also? no single scort would ever have gotten my eng that low. Know why? because he wouldn't be sitting at like 2 speed to try and use lol torpedoes.?
Yet you cannot post a better defense or way to improve my defense which means most likely given the same situation you would have died just as fast as me in your eng crusier.




Quote:
Originally Posted by kingofsandbox View Post
?Look you aren't smart enough for the pvp forum Get off of them.?
You?re the one after all this time who hasn?t cottoned on that I took that build into PvP for fun and a laugh. I know full well about its flaws but it fun to play.

Like I said both before and after the match it was for fun, go re read my posts. The only serious PvP builds I use with torpedoes is when I broadside with beams and have either x1 or x2 broadside projectiles depending on mood and I do that to lower energy drain. Over capped weapon power with 6 beam arrays and x2 broadside projectiles works pretty well.



Quote:
Originally Posted by kingofsandbox View Post
?You're too stupid for anything but name calling frankly. Your "tests" are hilarious at best.?
I am starting to wonder why I am wasting time with you as you are clearly just acting like a troll. At first it was fun and then I thought we could have a decent dissuasion but all you have done is prove you have no idea what you are talking. It seems you have no interest in facts. Go on point out the flaw in my tests that you act like you know so much about. Yet you cannot as just like before you are being arrogant knowing nothing about the situation yet acting like you do and resorting to name calling. That makes you look pretty bad. The only reason I keep posting is its been amusing to read your posts but they are starting to get a bit repetitive and boring now.

Last edited by pottsey5g; 10-27-2012 at 02:24 PM.
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