Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,430
# 11
10-30-2012, 04:36 PM
It occurs to me that simply changing the turrets to be affected by both CSV/CRF **and** FAW/BO would be the solution. Rather than add a new weapon, make existing skills apply to the existing weapons. Might take less time and effort.


Thoughts?
Commander
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 267
# 12
10-30-2012, 04:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hereticknight085 View Post
Sorry to burst your bubble.

Dual Cannons vs Dual Heavy Cannons. DHCs have a different firing animation, they fire from further out on the ships stabilizers. ALSO DHCs have a natural 10% bonus Crit severity. They also fire fewer shots, which means fewer chances for procs from the cannons.

Split Beam Rifles vs High Density Beam Rifles. You are correct, their primary firing function is almost identical. However the secondaries make them MASSIVELY different. Split Beam Rifles have an exploit secondary that fires three beams at three targets. Since it's an exploit, you can vaporize targets with it. The High Density Beam Rifle, it's secondary, one high power beam that has a knockback. That is a HUGE difference. You cannot claim repetition based solely on primary attack.

As for the Regent class? How dare you call that a repetition of the sovereign. It has huge differences. Primarily in BOff layout and bonus power settings. Big differences.

And tbh, your weapon idea kind of is a repetition of turrets. You already have a high firing arc low damage weapon. And if you want a true "Assault Cruiser", then you use single cannons on the nose, since their DPS and damage capability are similar to beams. Plus you can use CRF and CSV. And yes, those affect turrets.

And if you say one is beam damage and the other cannon? Both of them count as energy damage. There is no difference in damage type between cannons and beams.
Everything you said is laughable.

You actually make a point of noting that DHC and DCs are different because of a FIRING ANIMATION!? Dude...honestly? That is the most pointless difference EVER! That has no impact on the functionality of the weapon. I am talking about stats, not about where the projectile comes from. Statistically, the difference between DHC and DC are negligible.

And as for the Regent...yeah...it is a reskin. Again...slight...SLIGHT statistical differences, but in the end, I would never know the difference between the two if not for the mesh used in-game.

What I am proposing is a new classification of weapon that will work synergistically with beams. This is not a rehash of the turrets, but rather, a counter to them.

Beam weapons have no 360 weapon that works synergistically with all of the other beam weapons. This is a major oversight, and frankly, it is an oversight that, until rectified, limits the total amount of ship builds and configurations available to the player.

You are also failing to miss the point of everything I said if you just say "Use single cannons". Why not just use a broadside cruiser then? Your counter-point is moot, and it is defeated by the very notion of adding more styles of ship builds by introducing one weapon type (the 360 beam array)

How dare you call 360 beam arrays repetitive. The addition of this weapon will add more diversity to gameplay than the Regent class.
Commander
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 471
# 13
10-30-2012, 04:52 PM
The new Cutting Beam weapon from the Omega reputation system is a 360 degree beam weapon.

Then again it does kinetic damage and will be unique so that doesn't really help cruisers.

Helps DBB escort builds though. 4x DBB, 1x Cutting Beam, 2x Tricobalt Mine Launchers.

I'm trademarking that build now before it becomes popular.
Commander
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 267
# 14
10-30-2012, 04:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by seekerkorhil View Post
The new Cutting Beam weapon from the Omega reputation system is a 360 degree beam weapon.

Then again it does kinetic damage and will be unique so that doesn't really help cruisers.

Helps DBB escort builds though. 4x DBB, 1x Cutting Beam, 2x Tricobalt Mine Launchers.

I'm trademarking that build now before it becomes popular.

That just furthers my argument. They can add 360 degree weapons...so it would not be a monumental task to add 360 beam arrays.

And you see, people do care about ship builds and what they can come up with. This guy just trademarked a build.

Like I said...adding a 360 beam array will add more ship builds and layouts than there are currently. THis will open up new offensive possibilities for cruisers, and force escorts to rethink their defensive strategies.

THis would shake things up IMO.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 269
# 15
10-30-2012, 05:01 PM
I would be for this idea for one reason:

A Sci torpedo boat that could take advantage of target subsystems in 360 degrees whilst not eating up two weapons slots to do it (both front and rear). Just make sure to put Accuracy on it.

It's a great idea but it needs appropriate mods.

Last edited by rooster75; 10-30-2012 at 05:05 PM.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,616
# 16
10-30-2012, 05:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nakedcrook View Post
A 360 beam array adds an alternative to the current weapon set.
No.

Turrets are used on escorts because a escort have a turn rate were it can keep its front aimed at the enemy most of the time, this is especially true for Raiders (the BoP) since no other class can match their maneuverability.

However Turrets are used because its either their low DPS or no DPS and its arguable its use of the ones with lower turn rates.

A 360 beam would be a turret in DPS because otherwise everyone would run with them.

Quote:
However...this "repetitive addition" as you would call it, would allow the creation of a whole new play style in true assault cruisers. Giving Sovereigns and other cruiser more forward firepower makes them excellent head on ships.
Again, no.

Nothing stops you from using Turrets and Cannons on a cruiser now, why dont we do that?
Because it have a terrible turn rate, making the only thing that would actually hitting being the Turrets.

You are not adding more forward firepower because you have plently of that, what you DONT have is the maneuverability to keep anything locked for long.

Quote:
Not everyone wants a broadside cruiser.
Broadside only works against similarly low turning targets, everything with a higher turning rate and speed will just get out of the overlapping arc.

Quote:
Adding more ship builds is what this game needs. This game needs more ways for people to play differently, not more was to play the same.
You suggestion is what exactly?

You want a 360 beam that does WHAT? same damage that turret? OK this would perhaps be acceptable because some abilities dont work on turrets (subsystem targeting) but it might be problematic (subsystem targeting) but you are saying its DPS should be nearly equal to a Beam array then excuse me as I laugh my ass off ... serious? you think the moment people found a way to fire EIGHT weapons at the same target with NO lose of arc on a ship type that happens to have the HIGHEST hull rating they would not all be switching to that?

The only problem I see would be the energy strain on the ships meaning they would be barely able to fire or deal damage (it a -80 to weapons after all) but still there are ways to go around it or bypass it, starting with Engineer Captains that can bypass it by one of their abilities.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 757
# 17
10-30-2012, 06:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by seekerkorhil View Post
The new Cutting Beam weapon from the Omega reputation system is a 360 degree beam weapon.

Then again it does kinetic damage and will be unique so that doesn't really help cruisers.

Helps DBB escort builds though. 4x DBB, 1x Cutting Beam, 2x Tricobalt Mine Launchers.

I'm trademarking that build now before it becomes popular.
Hey! I was already thinking of that build type a few days ago, and my Peghqu destroyer build in sig is basically already there, just need the cutting beam to come out.
Prior art! It's mine!

But yeah I'm looking forward to getting the cutting beam. With 4x DBBs up front, 2 tric mine launchers and a turret, the turret is the odd one out in my build. I can't buff it and another mine launcher is useless.

To get more DPS up front, turret is the only option but it can't be buffed along with my DBBs. So it very much so is the odd thing out in my current build.

I'd love to see beam turrets put in. Imagine 8 of them and firing off FaW, lol.

To differentiate them, perhaps make them draw 1 less power per firing cycle.
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Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,764
# 18
10-30-2012, 06:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodentmaster View Post
It occurs to me that simply changing the turrets to be affected by both CSV/CRF **and** FAW/BO would be the solution. Rather than add a new weapon, make existing skills apply to the existing weapons. Might take less time and effort.


Thoughts?
As a means to allow full forwaed fire on cruiser without using turrets, this seems the easiest fix for a minor issue.
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Commander
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 267
# 19
10-30-2012, 06:37 PM
Good Lord f2pdrakron...where do I start with you.

I could just say WRONG...and that would summarize my entire reply...but...that is too easy.

Quote:
Turrets are used on escorts because a escort have a turn rate were it can keep its front aimed at the enemy most of the time, this is especially true for Raiders (the BoP) since no other class can match their maneuverability.
Everything about that statement is axiomatically wrong.

First off...an escort, a ship with incredible turn rate, uses dual heavy cannons / dual cannons, not turrets, as a compliment to their incredible turn rate. Turrets are used on these ships to bolster their DPS by using their aft as fore weapons to increase the effective front hardpoint count to 8 (in theory). 360 degree turrets on aft will fire out the front ALONG SIDE of dual cannons / dual heavy cannons.

In general, turrets are advantageous on ships using single, dual, and/or dual heavy cannons. Why are they advantageous? Simple...they work SYNERGISTICALLY (The definition of SYNERGY can be found HERE) Turrets can work with single, dual, and dual heavy cannons because they can all fire at the SAME TIME and are improved by the SAME Boff abilities

What you seem to fail to understand, is that I am proposing adding a new weapon type (not modifying the current 250 beam arrays), that acts as a 360 beam array as a compliment to Beam arrays / dual beam banks. Same concept as turrets, just intended for use with Boff that bolster beams, and ships that use beams.

Quote:
Nothing stops you from using Turrets and Cannons on a cruiser now, why dont we do that?

Because it have a terrible turn rate, making the only thing that would actually hitting being the Turrets.

You are not adding more forward firepower because you have plently of that, what you DONT have is the maneuverability to keep anything locked for long.
This has nothing to do with anything. Did you reply to the wrong thread?

Again...I am suggesting a 360 degree beam array, that can be placed on the aft, to work with either standard beam arrays on the fore, or dual beam banks. a 360 degree beam array would allow cruisers, which have lower turn rates, to use a weapon that works with their fore weapons more effectively.

FYI...dual cannons cannot be used on cruisers...single cannons can be, and they have a 180 degree firing arc. I have seen ships using dual beam banks with a 90 degree firing arc hit all sorts of things. What is the matter with you? Did you have a stroke? Are you delusional? Have you even played STO?

Quote:
Broadside only works against similarly low turning targets, everything with a higher turning rate and speed will just get out of the overlapping arc.
Yes...what does that have to do with the topic at hand? How does this argue against 360 beam arrays? What is your point?

The only thing I can say to this, is that while broadside cruisers can fire all 8 arcs out their sides, a cruiser using 360 beam arrays on aft, with dual beam banks in front will fire all 8 right out the front, turning it into a frontal assault cruiser (which would be a new, and popular, type of build).

All we are doing is redistributing where there firepower lies and what direction it comes from. Thats it. THis concept already exists in game, we are just adding another way to do it.

Quote:
You suggestion is what exactly?

You want a 360 beam that does WHAT? same damage that turret? OK this would perhaps be acceptable because some abilities dont work on turrets (subsystem targeting) but it might be problematic (subsystem targeting) but you are saying its DPS should be nearly equal to a Beam array then excuse me as I laugh my ass off ... serious? you think the moment people found a way to fire EIGHT weapons at the same target with NO lose of arc on a ship type that happens to have the HIGHEST hull rating they would not all be switching to that?

The only problem I see would be the energy strain on the ships meaning they would be barely able to fire or deal damage (it a -80 to weapons after all) but still there are ways to go around it or bypass it, starting with Engineer Captains that can bypass it by one of their abilities.
Holy Lord in Heaven...you must be very bad at reading.

Let me recap some of my previous posts for you, then ELABORATE on them...cause you seem to be slow. Your train of thought has a slow turn rate.

My suggestion...is a 360 degree beam array for cruisers / science ship / non-escort ships that would give beam boats the ability to fire all 8 weapon slots out of the front of the ship.

This suggestion is by no means out of balance, because this concept already exists. If you take an escort class ship, put 4 dual heavy cannons on front, and 4 turrets on aft, you can fire out all 8 weapon slots out the front.

My suggestion proposes that this same concept be extended to beam boats, by adding a weapon with a 360 degree firing arc that works SYNERGISTICALLY with beams...IE a BEAM WEAPON.

I have already said that with greater firing arc, weapon damage goes DOWN. By my OWN ADMISSION...I have said this. Read my initial post.

Quote:
4. 360 beam arrays will be the weakest of the beam weapons

This would also be undeniable. The greater your firing arc, the less damage that it should do...this is balance 101. I am sure everyone could agree on this.
You clearly did not read this thread, nor did you read the first post. Instead, you came in here, imagined what was said in your own little world, then proceeded to respond to what you IMAGINED was said.

and FYI...there already exists several ways to fire all 8 weapon arcs at a target. Escorts can do it with cannons. I think cruisers should be allowed to do this as well.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 633
# 20
10-30-2012, 06:45 PM
Quote:
I have seen ships using dual beam banks with a 90 degree firing arc hit all sorts of things. What is the matter with you? Did you have a stroke? Are you delusional? Have you even played STO?
No but i have and i cna tell you if you expect to use DBB's on a cruiser as primary DPS your in for a rude shock in PVE. The only way to keep a target in arc with DBB's in a cruiser for enough time to actually beat out broadsiding is to come to a near complete stop. Result your defnce takes a nosedive and so does you ability to take a hit. You die, you suck, congratulations.

That said i do belive it would be worth it strictly for science ships to get a bema vershion of the turret.
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