Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,757
# 151
11-06-2012, 05:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thishorizon View Post
and you could delete half of his posts on this thread do to the forum rules.

he has exhibited both flaming and trolling, yet, you do not censor him.

what gives?
It is funny how a few posters in the forums can spout all sorts of garbage threads and yet remain unscathed by moderation......
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Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 405
# 152
11-06-2012, 07:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sophlogimo View Post
D
You might also think about hat exactly causes some threads where I do participate to decline. Re-read them (no, really). Recently, it is usually the pattern "Logimo posts a valid opinion", followed by one of the usual trolls posting some snarky comment, followed by a short remark from me about that to defend myself, followed by even more trolling from the trolls.
Thank you for explaining how you perceive things. I am sorry that you feel ganged up on by the community, I'm sure that's not a great feeling, and it's easy to feel like you are a lone voice of reason in the wilderness. In fact, I would even say that you ARE frequently ganged up on at this point, because of the long history you have with the community at large. That is probably something we can try to tone back a little - when people disagree with you, I think the tendency is to assume a flame war is coming, and launch a preemptive strike, as it were. It's a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy (and one that I suspect cuts both ways, but I digress).

That said, if you want the community to recognize that your perspective is valid, you also need to be willing to look at things from our perspective. You say that the pattern is "Logimo posts a valid opinion", followed by trolling etc. Let me show you how it looks from the other perspective: "Logimo posts an opinion he is certain is correct" followed by reasoned counter arguments that get brushed off or ignored as trolling. To many, it feels like you post a 'question' that you already have a firmly formed opinion on, and that you react to counter-opinions... poorly, let's say.

To be fair, this is not a problem just with you - there are certainly other posters that have the same habits, and let's be real - human nature being what it is, none of us like to be told that we are 'wrong'. I honestly think this whole silly thing started with you holding an honest opinion, and the community honestly (if not always 100% tactfully) trying to get you to see things a different way. It's easy to interpret 'you are wrong' as a personal attack, or perhaps more galling as an attempt to 'silence' your opinion, so let me be clear: you are certainly entitled to your opinion, and of course, the majority believing something doesn't make it true.

By the same token, however, the majority believing something doesn't make it FALSE, either, and if you are going to go against accepted wisdom, you are going to have to bring some mighty fine ideas/evidence to the table. Resorting to 'well you are all suffering from herd behavior' or 'you are dismissing my ideas simply because they go against your dogma' doesn't get the job done, and certainly isn't going to progress the discussion. If you genuinely believe you are correct, that's fine, but as the saying goes, 'extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof', so you need to be willing to back up your ideas/feelings with the best hard facts you can find.

If you can do that, I think you will find that the PvP community would be more than willing to take your ideas seriously - after all, most pvpers are very 'mathematical' in their approach to the game. If you can show with actual, in-game numbers and combat log parser results that you are right about how a power works/doesn't work in theory, then you will get a receptive audience here. If you can't get those solid numbers, or if your numbers aren't matching up with what other posters are seeing, then the correct response is to question your premise and see if maybe there is some other explanation for what you are seeing.

Ultimately, I hope you do NOT leave the community, get banned, etc. I hope that you are able to find a way to explicitly entertain opposing viewpoints, even when you don't agree with them, and that you can continue to contribute new ideas to the community. I think the PvP world as a whole is better off with some dissenting voices, but know that the likelihood is that for every good, innovative idea you have, a hundred others are going to be terrible. That's the lot of the innovative thinker - you have to be very comfortable with failure if you are going to succeed.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,015
# 153
11-06-2012, 07:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by redricky View Post
You wish we were past this, but you have yet to resolve the obvious hypocrisy in your posts.

Answer the question: Does responsibility for the offensiveness of the post lie with the author or the audience? Because you seem to say that if readers are offended by your posts it is their fault, however you admit that you are justified in mocking others when you are offended by their posts.

My reading of your logic implies that you hold others to a standard which does not apply to you. As long as you persist in this attitude you will be the antithesis of the change which you claim to want to see come to this community.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sophlogimo View Post
Do you also recall what made me do that? A short hint: It had to do with being insulted, mocked, insulted more, and flamed quite a lot for pages before that.
Well, I have my answer. They made you do that? Ignoring for the moment the maturity level of that comment, you're saying their posts caused a reaction? But you still refuse to take responsibility for the discord generated by your posts?

It's time to rename your ship the Hyporcrates.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sophlogimo View Post
One question, though: Have you ever heard that a group of people, as such, is acting weird? Such as described in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_behavior ?
It could be. Or, it could be that this place has, as you have indicated in your thread title, a culture. With culture comes values and norms. Here's the relevant part of that article:
Quote:
When a member of a group breaks a group norm by engaging in a prohibited behavior, the other group members will typically sanction the deviant member. To sanction is to communicate disapproval in some way to the deviant member.
You said this place has a culture when you started this thread, so accept the implications of your assertion. It is easier for you to call it herd behavior because that has enough negative connotations to leave you blameless. In reality, you are acting contrary to the norms of this culture and others are expressing disapproval.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sophlogimo View Post
As I wrote, I am willing to do what is needed. .
No you are not willing to do what is needed to reduce the discord surrounding your posts. You still insist that it is some herd behavior that causes the community to express disapproval rather than the normal function of a culture whose mores are opposed to your particular style of trolling.

As a wise man once said, "Great, you've pinpointed it, step two is washing it off."

Last edited by redricky; 11-06-2012 at 07:48 AM.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,084
# 154
11-06-2012, 09:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by piwright42 View Post
[...]
In my opinion this forum is far from a warzone. To me it's home. Like brothers and sisters at home we rib, tease, call names and goad. If you look at it as being accepted in the community of PvPers it's all in good fun and it's some of the glue that holds the group together.
[...]
Now, please compare:

Quote:
Originally Posted by pwebranflakes View Post
[...]
The major concern I have is opening up those players to the "PvP" that goes on in this forum lol. It's like a warzone in here; there is so much rule-breaking going on and players are constantly are being trolled and harassed -- it's really unfortunate that a few individuals are ruining it for the rest of those who like to use this forum and provide constructive (positive or negative), civil feedback. I've been working on a thread that I've been wanting to post in here that comes from the heart as a fellow player, as well as the Community Manager. I'm hoping to have it posted soon. Basically, the trolling and harassing has to stop -- it's not good for the community, and it really doesn't help the cause.
[...]
Thanks.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Promote what you love, instead of bashing what you hate.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,662
# 155
11-06-2012, 09:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitemepwe View Post
It is funny how a few posters in the forums can spout all sorts of garbage threads and yet remain unscathed by moderation......
WTG Roach, invoking the ancient Chinese wisdom of the white horse paradox is showing just how rough and harassing these quarters can be.

Yet the mystery if pointing (=指) at emptiness (=空) is indeed like pointing at something (=物) remains. Only the mods can tell if talking about nothing is indeed talking about something, we cannot talk about.
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# 156
11-06-2012, 09:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by havam View Post
wtg Roach, Invoking The Ancient Chinese Wisdom Of The white Horse Paradox is Showing Just How Rough And Harassing These Quarters Can Be.

Yet The Mystery If Pointing (=指) At Emptiness (=空) Is Indeed Like Pointing At Something (=物) Remains. Only The Mods Can Tell If Talking About Nothing Is Indeed Talking About Something, We Cannot Talk About.
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Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,192
# 157
11-06-2012, 09:49 AM
double standards are common on these forums. I got forum ban for "drug reference" when i asked "what is someone smoking" clearly not in the drug context. Yet other posters clearly do not recieve the same same treatment as there are dozen unmoderated posts with exactly the same thing. I guess it was because I was also critizing Cryptic in that post.
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Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 471
# 158
11-06-2012, 10:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sophlogimo View Post
Now, please compare:



Thanks.
Don't look to me for support Sophi, I'm a bridge you burned long ago in many other threads, most of which you started.

I did compare, Sophi, in the paragraph above the one you quote mined...

Quote:
Originally Posted by piwright42
This sub-forum is far from toxic if you approach it right. There are archived posts where I even told PvEers how to approach the PvP forum to best effect. As I recall some of those I gave that advice to even went on to become PvPers in their own right.
Nice attempt to shift the focus but your post here is a prime example of how you garner the type of attention you get.

Why do you of all people complain that this sub-forum is toxic? I mean that is why you latched onto Branflakes post so hard that you started a thread for it, right? Because we are mean and do not shout that all of Sophi's opinions should be taken as law 'cause they're all just that good. And when you blindly defend all of your ideas as such some of us take pause and try to show you a better way to go about it and that makes us idiots for not understanding your opinion.

You want attention. You desire attention so bad that you take both positive and negative and seek to generate both with your passive aggressive posts. Well your reaping the whirlwind.
If you are a pickle in a pickle jar you know every pickle's different, sort of, but really they're all just pickles...
They taste the same.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,015
# 159
11-06-2012, 10:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dalnar83 View Post
double standards are common on these forums. I got forum ban for "drug reference" when i asked "what is someone smoking" clearly not in the drug context. Yet other posters clearly do not recieve the same same treatment as there are dozen unmoderated posts with exactly the same thing. I guess it was because I was also critizing Cryptic in that post.
This is why Soph has flown under the radar thus far. His passive aggressive posts and inflammatory tactics do not contain language that jumps off of the screen at a moderator. He goes for the long con, drawing the genuinely helpful in with a seemingly innocent question, then derides and dismisses those who offer an honest response. There is no obvious profanity to alert a passing moderator. On the contrary, those who were insulted after responding in good faith usually end up posting things that can be seen at a glance to violate the rules.

I mean, he's basically throwing it in our faces with his forum handle:
Quote:
Sophism in the modern definition is a specious argument used for deceiving someone.
Frankly, I'm glad we can discuss this openly so bran and the community moderators can get a sense of what kind of problem we have.

So, bran, bluegeek, others, what do you say? If a post does not contain obvious profanity or name calling, but is still insulting, is it flaming? If a group is drawn in with a question only to be told why they are wrong for the views they share, is it an attempt to promote unfriendly conversation? How will you measure the undue discontent created by passive aggressive posts?

Bran, this thread was started based on something you posted about this place being a warzone, but many people are coming out and saying that there is one source above all others making it so. Either we're all suffering from mass hysteria herd instincts which are causing us to go on a witch hunt targeting an extremely polite and misunderstood community member, or we've all seen posts that are deeply insulting while being designed to appear civil.

I know the forums might not be up to it, but a rep system could really help. You can't be expected to follow an entire thread that's gone over 50 pages to understand the subtle derision of one poster. So let the community do it. The person in the conversation is in the best place to judge the insult, so let them.

If a rep system generated reports that came to you then if somebody says "What is someone smoking" and nobody down reps the post, then you never need delete it because it is understood to be a colloquialism which offended nobody rather than an implication that someone is engaging in illegal behavior. And if an entire thread is devoted to subtly angering a subset of the community then multiple neg reps should be generated, drawing your attention.

If we can't get the tools to police ourselves, I put it back to you: how will you moderate the passive aggressive long con?
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Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 5,431
# 160
11-06-2012, 10:55 AM
I'd just like to say, I do enjoy coming here and everything, but there is a lot of 'pots' calling a lot of 'kettles', 'black'.

This applies to many here when the discussions get heated. Not just this thread, or the people in it, but often times elsewhere in this area of the forum. It's not a 'flame war' or anything, but heated and usually needs to be toned down.

Now then, Soph, I see right through everything you say. The deflections are there, denying yourself of any fault, yet freely saying others are the problem. Since we're all tossing out psycho-babble here, allow me to toss out one as well:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection

Soph, I look at that article (others should too) and I feel that fits you almost perfectly. You deny yourself of any problem, and in turn, everyone else you see has exactly that problem. Again, 'pots' calling 'kettles', 'black'. Be it you on others, or others on you.

Now, to everyone, we're all right, and we're all wrong in a way.

We're all right (soph included) in that this area of the forum does need to change, Branflakes had a good point in that. BUT we're all wrong in many ways, because we're used to it as it stands now. Even the mods and devs are used to that.

So I feel that this place needs a clean sweep, literally. Erase EVERY post and thread in this area of the forum. I know that'd be annoying and a lot of work, but I feel it'd be good just to wipe the floor. Locking threads wouldn't be enough. That would still mean old threads could be re-made (like help threads for example)

In turn, it'd have to be something agreed upon by all here, choosing to have this whole area wiped completely. This would also go for feelings about others, mostly the bad ones. Start over completely on a fresh, untouched page.

In short, we'd have to be unified on what we want here, so that way it can happen for the good of all.

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