Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,015
# 61
11-02-2012, 06:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rooster75 View Post
I've been posting on these forums for 3 years and I've never been "trolled or harassed" by other PvP'ers for making a post even when I've disagreed with someone. The assumption that this sub-forum is a "warzone" is not accurate.
Yeah, I think "warzone" is not accurate. This place isn't really that bad. If it were just a place to discuss things between players it would be fine. But devs poke their heads in and they say they want to use this place to get feedback. If the forum is going to be valuable to the devs in that way then it needs more structure and infrastructure.

An ignore option would make life quieter, but you don't really want quiet. You want calm. So if somebody shows up and says "This shield is OP" and another person says "No, here's why" the culture exists to keep it civil. Then the devs can follow the discussion and hopefully see how players perceive their work.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegeek View Post
This drives me crazy, too... Did they really violate forum rules or not? Did they intend to come off as offensive, or am I taking them out of context or too seriously? Are they voicing a sincere opinion or are they trolling? Do I give them the benefit of the doubt? Should I give them a warning and edit out their posts, or not?

There is, unfortunately, no specific forum rule against arrogance and egos abound everywhere.

But the key here is that people do not easily change their pattern and the abusive types eventually cross over the line. Be patient, avoid responding in kind, or by flaming back, and you're not the one getting moderated.
Try this metric: If a thread is started with a question, how does the OP respond to those who provide answers? If the OP tells the respondents why they are wrong then it is a troll thread. If the OP had made a statement instead of asking a question then it wouldn't be trolling. The question is bait.

For example:
Q: "Why do people keep asking for KDF content?"
A: "Well, they said it was coming."
A: "We used to start at lower levels."
A: "They said before launch this would have 2 factions."
A: "Glass beads and polio blankets..."
T: "All of you are wrong, here's why..."

That's a troll thread. If the OP had started with "We should stop waiting for KDF content because X, Y, and Z," that would be an honest post. When phrased as a question it is used to gather up everyone who feels a certain way in order to incite them. Were it phrased as a statement then those who wanted to debate the point could respond, while those who don't feel the need to convince others could move right along.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 165
# 62
11-02-2012, 06:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by redricky View Post
Try this metric: If a thread is started with a question, how does the OP respond to those who provide answers? If the OP tells the respondents why they are wrong then it is a troll thread.
OMG... this means I got my education at "TROLL-U"!

What you're describing is very close to what is called inductive teaching, where you present the bottom line, and guide the student while he's trying to figure out the why. This is considered to be a better method for learning than the traditional deductive brick-on-brick style... At least that's what I was told at "TROLL-U".


(I see your point, and in most cases it's valid. I'm just afraid this will lead to all the teachers in the forum being vanquished)

Last edited by pvehero; 11-02-2012 at 06:53 AM.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,845
# 63
11-02-2012, 11:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
Yeah, it's bad - they look at you like you're some completely different person.
For short period of time you where a different person as far as they are concerned.
Leonard Nimoy, Spock.....

R.I.P
Super Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 5,126
# 64
11-02-2012, 01:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rooster75 View Post
I personally think that these forums don't need moderation. I've played other MMO's that see very little moderation (if any at all) on their forums and these communities seem to be more harmoniously ran than this one. Sometimes less is more.
Wish that was true, but in my opinion it's not. I've been a regular on these forums long before F2P and way before I was a Community Mod. I've seen plenty of atrocious behavior from people who should know better, and I'm not just talking about the occasional outburst or 'heated debate'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rooster75 View Post
What needs to happen is a report function at which time the community in a self-policing mode can report something for moderator review.
Fully agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rooster75 View Post
Until then, forum moderation should keep a low presence and let things just be.
I'd like that. But have you noticed that the trolling and flaming gets worse on the weekends when the Moderators are less likely to be watching the threads?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rooster75 View Post
So what. Discussions get a little heated. That's life.
I make allowances for 'a little heated'. I won't say I don't make mistakes, because I do. I have bad days and I get grumpy the same as anybody else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rooster75 View Post
As it is now, the moderators are more than happy to ban accounts they feel are breaking the rules which absolutely does no good at all because all one needs to do is make a new account to bypass a ban. In fact, these forum moderators shouldn't probably be able to do anything with an account other than suspend because the ban privilege frequently gets abused anyway. Just saying there is no checks and balances on these guys.
First I'd like to mention that Community Moderators, such as myself, do not have the ability to ban anybody or otherwise mess with somebody's account. All I can do is to issue warnings and recommend infractions. And my recommendations aren't rubber-stamped. That's understandable, because I am a volunteer, not a PWE employee.

Probably a good thing, because as much as I want to be fair there have been a few people who would have tempted me sorely.

Not sure if you were referring to checks and balances on Mods, but they're there. PWE even tells forum users about most of them, if they'd read the stickies. Anybody has a problem with anything I do, like close a thread or edit a post, has only to put in a ticket with customer service. BranFlakes, the Community Manager for STO, can see, overrule, and undo anything I do if he thinks I was wrong.

And those guys bypassing bans? Little thing called Account Guard could potentially take care of that real quick. If they can identify your computer to authorize your account, then they can figure out which computers belong to Mr. Bannedguy without too much extra trouble. Could maybe get around that too, but not quite as easy. I know there have been people who have been caught at it and they get those accounts insta-banned.

Fact is, everybody who created an account agreed to the Terms of Service and the Forum Rules, whether they bothered to read them or not. Everybody here agreed to hold to a certain standard of behavior that they're expected to conform to. Now it's entirely up to PWE how they choose to enforce their Terms of Service. PWE is way more lenient and open than they have to be. Be sure that they do enforce the ToS though, because it reinforces their legal right to do it.
Volunteer Community Moderator for the Star Trek Online forums -- My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. If you wish to speak to someone on the community team, file a "forums and website" support ticket here, as we are not able to respond to PMs regarding moderation inquiries.
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 269
# 65
11-02-2012, 03:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegeek View Post
Wish that was true, but in my opinion it's not. I've been a regular on these forums long before F2P and way before I was a Community Mod. I've seen plenty of atrocious behavior from people who should know better, and I'm not just talking about the occasional outburst or 'heated debate'.
A block function would fix all of that. It should always be the first line of defense against trolling/flaming. If a person should choose not to utilize that function (too bad we don't have one anymore) then they are willingly allowing themselves to be trolled and hence there would be no reason for a moderator to intervene. Used with a report function that allowed the community to police itself would be a much more ideal situation than what this forum currently has which often leads to overmoderation and liberal use of bans.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegeek View Post
I'd like that. But have you noticed that the trolling and flaming gets worse on the weekends when the Moderators are less likely to be watching the threads?
Above response also applies to this. I have not noticed that trolling/flaming gets worse on the weekends compared to that of any other day. I think I tend to have a much more liberal definition of what I consider trolling/flaming vs heated discussion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegeek View Post
First I'd like to mention that Community Moderators, such as myself, do not have the ability to ban anybody or otherwise mess with somebody's account. All I can do is to issue warnings and recommend infractions. And my recommendations aren't rubber-stamped. That's understandable, because I am a volunteer, not a PWE employee.

Probably a good thing, because as much as I want to be fair there have been a few people who would have tempted me sorely.

Not sure if you were referring to checks and balances on Mods, but they're there. PWE even tells forum users about most of them, if they'd read the stickies. Anybody has a problem with anything I do, like close a thread or edit a post, has only to put in a ticket with customer service. BranFlakes, the Community Manager for STO, can see, overrule, and undo anything I do if he thinks I was wrong.

And those guys bypassing bans? Little thing called Account Guard could potentially take care of that real quick. If they can identify your computer to authorize your account, then they can figure out which computers belong to Mr. Bannedguy without too much extra trouble. Could maybe get around that too, but not quite as easy. I know there have been people who have been caught at it and they get those accounts insta-banned.

Fact is, everybody who created an account agreed to the Terms of Service and the Forum Rules, whether they bothered to read them or not. Everybody here agreed to hold to a certain standard of behavior that they're expected to conform to. Now it's entirely up to PWE how they choose to enforce their Terms of Service. PWE is way more lenient and open than they have to be. Be sure that they do enforce the ToS though, because it reinforces their legal right to do it.
I should probably clarify that I am referring to the Community Manager taking the "ban stick" too far. We've all seen it happen and know of cases where rules get interpreted too literally and instances which don't need intervention get it anyway. Bans were WAY overused when Wishy was here and they still get used far too much even in light of them not having any real effect. A suspension should be the maximum allowed punishment for any number of infractions. When I speak of checks and balances this is more of what I'm speaking about regarding the Community Manager who probably shouldn't be banning anyone. If he can't peacefully resolve situations without resorting to a ban then he's probably not very good at managing the community anyway. I didn't really make that clear in my earlier post. I'm just saying that we all know that moderation is overused and bans happen far too frequently. The community would be much better off policing itself if it had the right tools like I talked about in earlier posts. Moderator presence should be much less and should only occur when an issue has been reported by the community.

By the way, thank you for taking the time to respond to all of those posts. The dialogue is great and i really don't mean to offend anyone if I have. I'm just speaking my mind which is often not encouraged on these forums.

Last edited by rooster75; 11-02-2012 at 04:27 PM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,525
# 66
11-03-2012, 01:14 AM
I must say that I find it kind of symptomatic that some people try to turn this thread from a "guys, we need to improve" into a "the moderators are doing it all wrong".

Everybody who does not "see what Brandon is talking about" should probably have a closer look at the forum rules and then examine some of the more heated threads again. Might be an eye-opener. If one wants to be eye-opened.

I know, most of especially those who should won't click that link. so let me quote a few passages:

"
[...]
Flaming and/or Trolling
You may not post content which contains insults to other users or Perfect World Entertainment Staff, are specifically made to create undue discontent on the forums, disturbances in forum threads, pick fights or otherwise promote unfriendly conversation.

[...]

Harassing Material
You may not create posts which contain material that is repetitively insulting, defaming and/or otherwise harassing any other user and/or any PWE employee, officer and/or director.

Obscene/Vulgar/Inappropriate Objectionable Material
You may not create posts which contain language, comments, references, links, symbols, terms and/or imagery about and/or promote and/or otherwise support, in any manner whether directly or indirectly, obscene, vulgar, inappropriate and/or otherwise objectionable material or, that allude to, contain language, comments, references, links, symbols, terms and/or imagery about and/or promote and/or otherwise support, in any manner whether directly or indirectly, pornography and/or extreme violence or sexual acts.

Posting Private Correspondence
You may not post messages that have been sent or received in private. This includes, but is not limited to:
  • PMs received from other users and PWE Staff.
  • Correspondence from our Customer Service Department or moderators.
  • Discussing disciplinary actions taken against any forum, or game account.

Illegal Drugs and Other Illegal Activities
You may not create posts and/or private messages that allude to, contain language, comments, references, links, symbols, terms and/or imagery about and/or promote and/or otherwise support, in any manner whether directly or indirectly, illegal drug use and/or other illegal activities.

Real-Life Threats
You may not create posts and/or private messages that allude to, contain language, comments, references, links, symbols, terms and/or imagery about and/or promote and/or otherwise support, in any manner whether directly or indirectly, violence or threats against another user.

Real-Life Personal Information
You are not allowed to post personal, real-life information such as home addresses, home phone numbers, e-mail addresses or other personal information belonging to any person, including, without limitation, yourself.

Circumventing a Suspension/Ban
You may not create or use another account to circumvent a suspension or ban.

[...]

Hate Speech
You may not create posts and/or private messages that allude to, contain language, comments, references, links, symbols, terms and/or imagery about and/or promote and/or otherwise support, in any manner whether directly or indirectly, hatred, discrimination and/or denigrations based on or related to race, ethnicity, religion, sect, color, national origin, age, gender, familial status, sexual orientation, disability status, veteran status, genetic information, etc.

Sales and Trading
You may not create posts and/or private messages that allude to, contain language, comments, references, links, symbols, terms and/or imagery about and/or promote, advertise and/or otherwise support, in any manner whether directly or indirectly, the purchase, sale and/or trade of any account, character and/or other game asset for out of game assets.

Additional Guidelines

[...]
Each user is allowed to create one account. Automated account creation, participation, and content scraping are not permitted.

[...]

When mentioning, referring and/or linking to other websites, you must ensure that the content of the mention, reference and/or link is appropriate for our community and in line with these Guidelines. If you mention, refer to and/or post a link and such mention, reference and/or posting is automatically censored, it is considered to be inappropriate and you should remove it from your post immediately.

[...]

Whenever you are participating in this community, please keep in mind that we strive to create a fun, friendly and inviting atmosphere. We hope you have fun and enjoy the PWE Community!"


It is fairly obvious that each of these rules have been violated by several people here in the past, most of which was not reacted upon by the moderators (probably because it was just too much).

Any disagreement here?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Promote what you love, instead of bashing what you hate.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...lM_skuv4#t=584
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,365
# 67
11-03-2012, 07:22 AM
I think a few details of the problem can also been seen from the following:

1) Lack of Official Information
The mechanics of this game are fairly well hidden. It is difficult at times to claim that you are correct about something when you are forced to prove it on your own and your test methods may not be perfect. Case in point the fleet shield thread where I may have gotten a bit too heated or any number of DC vs DHC threads.

2) Quanity of Sub-Cultures that blend.
I would say their are 3 subcultures on these forums with a bit of crossover.
- Casual Player PvE and/or PvP
- Hardcore PvPer
- Hardcore PvEer
Now don't put too much stock in my labels please but there are many different goals and/or viewpoints held by the various sub-cultures that are opposing because they enjoy different aspects of the game or have a different style of play. Check any cruiser thread and you can see this. Or a majority of the ship build threads.

The best way to fix that would be to re-organize the forums. I would suggest instead of the current 'info/feedback' we have three basics.
1) General: As current but remove academy
2) PvE: Academy, Feedback, and Shipyard, possibly a General
3) PvP: Academy, Feedback, and Shipyard, possibly a General

I think THAT alone would solve a crap-ton of the arguments.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,325
# 68
11-03-2012, 07:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pvehero View Post
I know this is borderline to discussing moderation, from me as well as from you, but as you started it... You should really look at who is moderated for what, and in what way. When someone is permanently locked out for something that barely was worth an infraction, word of it gets out. When people realize that you may get locked up even if you try to follow the rules and be nice, they don't see a point to even try to follow rules and be nice. And that can't possibly be good for the forum?
This. I know i'm one of those that gets hot headed sometimes, but it's not towards other players because they're in the same boat we are. I'm hot headed because an entire community is being lied to over and over and over again. If you want the PVP sub forum to get better, you need to give us things to do. You can't put somebody in a room his whole life and feed him the same 2 meals day after day after day and wonder why he rebels. You ask him "What's the problem? I keep you fed! You never once have gone hungry!" The guy replies, "I can't eat the same thing for nearly 3 whole years, it's cruel. At least give me some salt & pepper."

We love having Bort hanging around the forum answering questions, he's honest and does his best. We love some of the Community Moderators, they have a sense of humor and can even moderate threads without punishing people. We're not stupid, we can see that.

But everything works both ways, if you give out warnings, and bans for things that really weren't worth it, we DO hear about it, and at the end of the day it just creates a "Them vs Us" mentality which you (as the Them) will only win if you just delete the subforum.

If the community thought for even a moment that Cryptic actually listened to us, things would be so much better, but you guys have dug yourselves such a big hole over the years that you can't complain when you ask for a hand getting out, and nobody rushes to help anymore.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,325
# 69
11-03-2012, 08:19 AM
Remember how nice it was when Gozer was around? I remember the FIRST week he entered the forums as PVP Overlord, the change in this subforum & the OPVP channel was instant.

He spelled out his intentions for PVP, he gave it to us straight, he warned us that not everything he had planned we would like, but made it clear that it was the only way to make PVP viable. He told us it would take time, he gave us reasons why time was an issue and gave details on how development worked at Cryptic. He was honest and he made it clear several times that he was reading what we said, and he was taking it on board.

From that moment on the forum thread names I saw were fantastic, it was all about:

"How can we find a way is solving ABC"
"ABC is broken, please somebody post video/screenshots"
"What would you like for PVP's new gametype besides Arena and C&H?"
"How do we solve this"
"Constructive Feedback"
"Constructive Feedback"
"Constructive Feedback"

It was great! You could literally see the change. Every week Gozer would reappear and say "I got this done this week!" or "Not much progress this week, but if you guys could look into something for me, it'd save time" and people would.

When FAW was broken, Bort appeared and asked for proof and as much info as he could get to find out more, he was literally bulldozed over by people like Mav who supplied screenshots, logs and videos of bugs in action. Pax and his RPers did it recently.

Problem was, as soon as Gozer jumped ship, things went slowly to **** again, we felt left behind, the potential golden goose had flown away, what did Cryptic do to cause that? Bastards! Lets rage about it for a month.

If you want the PVP Subforum to be some sort of golden garden of enlightenment, you need to give us something as well, and it needs to be in the form of a few developers that ARE trying to make things better, that DO come out and honestly say "Things are broken, what do you guys think?"

As it stands, Cryptic is making it clear that everytihng it does it to get money, it's not about the life of the game, it smacks at "How do we get the most before running away to NeverWinter" - I'm not saying thats true, butthe Vesta sure as hell does. It's far too powerful and it's unlikely to be changed.

Last edited by aquitaine985; 11-03-2012 at 08:22 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 376
# 70
11-03-2012, 08:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sophlogimo View Post
[...]
Flaming and/or Trolling
You may not post content which contains insults to other users or Perfect World Entertainment Staff, are specifically made to create undue discontent on the forums, disturbances in forum threads, pick fights or otherwise promote unfriendly conversation.



It is fairly obvious that each of these rules have been violated by several people here in the past, most of which was not reacted upon by the moderators (probably because it was just too much).

Any disagreement here?
I find it truly ironic that you, of all people, are posting about rules regarding trolling and flaming.

Consider how much less troll and flame posts there would be in here if you, specifically you, had never posted. Then ask yourself why you continue to provoke such responses if you're so concerned about the so called 'warzone'.
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