Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,247
I've been thinking about this for a while now.

I see all the complaints about the game being a grind fest. It can be, absolutely, if you let it.

A friend was lamenting earlier about the difficulty of Onslaught, "Too much effort, for not enough reward". He was only interested in how fast he could earn Dilithium, not in the mission itself. It was then it hit me, that WE make this game a grind fest.

Honestly, most if not all PVE content can be completed with Mk X Blue gear (lower if in the hands of a skilled player (I've seen it), and Free ships (seen that too).

It is this need for immediate gratification, this need to have a fleet base in 2 weeks.. with all the top end gear. Did I miss the post somewhere that the first fleet to reach T5 gets a special reward? A new car? Cash? I don't think I have... and if thats the case... then whats the rush? The same applies for the new reputation system.

Whats the rush to get to that next tier, where you feel you HAVE to grind grind grind, with a side of grind?

I will, of course, work towards my personal reputation... and my fleets embassy... all while continuing to work on advancing our fleet base and finishing the last 2 Doff catagories (by the way, anyone know where to find some high value Trade missions?) BUT... I won't let it make me feel that I HAVE to be first.. I won't sacrifice my enjoyment in order to unlock gear that is marginally better then what I have.

I was struck then about the sheer variety of things to do... or not do... its your preference. I am not a huge fan of the explore missions... so I do them rarely. I like several of the Fleet Mark missions, like STF's, (God help me) Nukara, and Defera. I'm excited about the new content. I've recently started running a lot more Foundry missions (insta-content). And no, not just the quickie clickies to complete Investigate Officer Reports for the Dil and Fleet Marks.

Side Note: My hat goes off to you Foundry authors... I played with the foundry once... you all have some amazing skills, patience, and creative ability.

So, here's the thing... don't worry about the next tier, or that project thats been open for a couple days... don't grind... enjoy your time outside of reality. Do what makes you happy. When you first downloaded and launched the game... was it to grind for a fleetbase? Or to enjoy some time away from Real Life. (Personally, I downloaded and installed because it said Star Trek ).

The same thing goes for the Pay to Win threads (see above... nothing in PVE requires a paid anything (granted you might not post the record breaking ISE time)... maybe I can see that in PVP. And while enjoyable (at least to me... i win some, lose a lot) it really isn't what I do most of the time, nor does it have a lasting effect on the other aspects of the game... and not why I signed up in the first place.

Slow down, relax, and enjoy yourself... If you think its a grind... you're doing it wrong.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------Star Trek Online, Now with out the Trek....
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 11,110
# 2
11-03-2012, 02:26 PM
Yes and no. Yes the players make it a grind, yes that's also where the rewards are. If there were huge areas full of places to screw around and explore, and decent rewards for doing so we wouldn't have any excuses now would we?

I like the new Adventure Zone. I hope we get one every season.
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,977
# 3
11-03-2012, 03:04 PM
Originally Posted by johnny111971 View Post
A friend was lamenting earlier about the difficulty of Onslaught, "Too much effort, for not enough reward". He was only interested in how fast he could earn Dilithium, not in the mission itself. It was then it hit me, that WE make this game a grind fest.
this made me laugh. the rewards are not even hooked up/working right yet on tribble. no wonder he did not like the rewards.

House of Cards - Lvl 46 Fed mission
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,192
# 4
11-03-2012, 03:22 PM
There is a lot of truth in what you say. Unfortunately, we live in an age of instant gratification. For so many, whatever they want they have to be able to get now. The idea of working towards a goal and letting the journey be a reward unto itself, all that matters is the reward itself. This is the reason why so many people actually refuse to even TRY the foundty. Because there's no real reward in it.

Sometimes I wonder if any of the people who feel like that ever watched a single episode of Star Trek. Or any TV show. Or read a book. Or watched a sporting event. If they have, why did they do it? What rewards do they get for doing these things?

I remember a time when I played games to complete them, and my only thing I hoped for was that the ending would be good.

Anyone remember how long classic DOOM lasted in terms of popularity. It didn't matter whose levels you played, your advancement was finding all the weapons and discovering all the secret areas. All the monsters were the same. Ah but each map author that established a name for himself in the community did so by being creative with the assets at his disposal. Yes. Some map authors sucked. But when you found those that didn't you anticipated what they were going to do next.

Back then people played to play, not for some loot they were going to get at the end.

But that is how MMOs are these days. Loot is the carrot at the end of a stick and we are the stubborn mules who won't do anything unless it gets dangled in front of our noses. We have become spoiled. We don't play just to play anymore. It's no wonder so many of us say we don't have fun...

Ah well...
I'm not really a John Galt,
but I play one on the forums...
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 255
# 5
11-04-2012, 04:40 AM
Originally Posted by johnny111971 View Post
Do what makes you happy.
MKXII gear makes me happy. There's little to do in STO. What would you have us do? Twiddle our thumbs in between doing stuff? Watch CSI Miami in between each STF we do? Etc? Horribly inefficient. End game gear doesn't grow on trees.

And I'll say it again: The grind in this game is sub par a best. But it's still a free to play game, and it has more grind than it should.
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,427
# 6
11-04-2012, 04:43 AM
The OP has completely the right approach to be honest. I don't understand why people are powerlevelling the SBs so hard anyway, other than for bragging rights or maybe for selling access to a few ships (not gonna come even remotely close to breaking even on the costs, guys).

vids and guides and stuff

[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
Career Officer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 515
# 7
11-04-2012, 06:17 AM
Not sure what your supposed to do at end game if your not grinding.
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,192
# 8
11-04-2012, 07:03 AM
Originally Posted by ussdelphin2 View Post
Not sure what your supposed to do at end game if your not grinding.
The thing is, there should no END game. There should just be THE game. Ultima Online was my first MMO. From the moment you first entered the gameworld to the moment you quit playing for whatever reason, your character was yours and you were free to make of him or her whatever you wished. There were systems and subsystems that ensured we could do pretty much whatever we wanted, and there was always a purpose we could attach to our actions.

It never really felt like a grind to me.

But with EverQuest came the grindfest era of MMOs that hasn't abated in the slightest.

In UO, there were no quests with any real loot associated with them. There was gear you could find as drops from certain mobs, but if you could defeat one, you got whatever it was you were after. None of this overly randomized drag you out for weeks or months hoping you'll get that one piece of gear that never seems to want to drop. They didn't force you into feeling like it was a chore. You played the game. You considered it a rewarding session if you managed to do whatever you planned for that session. If you didn't, well. there was always next time.

In todays MMOs, the developers want to force us down the paths THEY want us to go down and make us jump through all these ridiculous hoops to get random gear that they are just going to render obsolete. In UO, any special gear you looted really didn't have anything unbalancing. It pretty much just served as a visual testimony of an achievement. People could look at you and see what you achieved. You didn't just have a list of achievements that also required indirect grinding to complete.

A MMO without an end game is one in which all the gameplay features are designed around the gameworld and how to interact with it and the other players sharing it. It isn't about dinging levels or getting higher and higher tiered gear. From the moment you start to the moment you quit, you are in THE game.

There were things people wanted for UO that were not technologically practical back then, but with today's technology would not be unrealistic. But instead of offering us more freedom more ways to manipulate the game worlds, we are allowed to do less and less in each new MMO that comes out.

Yes. there was still grinding behind the scenes in UO. But because whatever goal I was trying to accomplish was one I set, and I was doing whatever I wanted to, it didn't feel like it. Plus, whatever achievemnt such as maxing a skillm served a real purpose by having a practical application in gameplay.

What is the point in player Starbases. After we hit max tier on them, what purpose will they serve in terms of gameplay. How will the affect the galaxy around us? Will they just serve as a testimony to all the time and dilithium we spent on them and leave us scratching our heads, going "What now?"

If grinding has a real purpose that goes beyond just personal gratification and actually has an effect on the gameworld itself, then it feels like a contribution and less like a chore.

If Cryptic does not want to create mission to give us an on-going experience that feels like we are involved with an actual story, then they should focus on creating mechanics that have a real purpose. I've got some Ideas and I will present them as soon as I can get them organized. Not that I expect Cryptic to embrace them.
I'm not really a John Galt,
but I play one on the forums...
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,193
# 9
11-04-2012, 07:09 AM
Two words, OP. "Nailed it!"

And here I thought I was the only one or at least one of the very few who thinks this way. But I fear you trying to explain this here will have the same results as trying to teach a bear to ride a bicycle. Namely - 1) The bear will not like it. 2) The end result will be kinda ugly. Which is not what you intended. Be easier to teach a blind man about colors.

I am an F2P who is currently thinking hard hard about LTS around Christmastime for myself and my son. Mostly to play with the Foundry as we haven't gotten to do that yet. I play STO to relax. Not gather all the MK XII purple loot I can, as fast as I can. Had a complete Mk XII MACO Set once. Traded it in at a Vendor just see what it was actually worth. If you listen carefully, you can hear the 'Thuds' from all the FanBoys passing out and hitting the floor right about now. My next project is called "Whiteout". Gonna take a Miranda and outfit it with Common everything, including BOFFs and DOFFs. Wanna see just how far my skills ingame can take me. Without relying on Purple Crutches to save me from my mistakes, lol.
Would Diogenes' search have been faster or better if he had the Internet?
I'm guessing, Oh HELL no!
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,221
# 10
11-04-2012, 07:15 AM
This was more-or-less exactly my thoughts, and not just about grind
Was named Trek17, but still an author.

Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh'. I have nothing against the game/devs, nor any particular wish to talk bad about either, or praise most decisions. Still, it's better to be positive than cynical.

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