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Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,400
# 21
11-06-2012, 02:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by starkaos View Post
[DMG] is not a bad bonus for PvE its just not that good for PvP compared to [Acc]
It's still worse than either CrtH or CrtD for PvE.


Quote:
Originally Posted by stoleviathan99 View Post
Dmg seems to do more already for high damage, high speed weapons.
How do you figure this?




Quote:
Originally Posted by canis36 View Post
I'm a little wary of the suggestion that [Dmg] be made a percentage modifier unless it's adjusted to give a smaller bonus to stronger weapons and a larger bonus to weaker weapons.
In a way, that's what it does now.

It grants a much lower (percentage-wise) DPS bonus the more damage your weapon does.

Which only adds to it not being very good.



Quote:
Originally Posted by canis36 View Post
We already have a DPS problem that makes Escorts/Raptors/Destroyers the most highly effective ships in endgame PvE and a perception that this makes the other ship types useless.
Those ships are supposed to be the most effective ships at dealing damage.

Just as Cruisers are supposed to be the most effective at mitigation and healing, and Sci ships are supposed to be the most effective at CC/Debuffs (and healing)

The problem is not with those ships, or their weapons.

The problem is the game environment which favors damage and does not require healing, CC or tanking.


While I haven't played it yet, Onslaught seems to be a step in the right direction to create a role-space for ships like Cruisers and Sci.

Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,192
# 22
11-06-2012, 03:24 AM
I personally would change dmg modifier to something better, like reducing weapon drain, thus increasing the dps in overall picture.

Or change the DMG modifier to something noticeable.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,033
# 23
11-06-2012, 03:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post
It's still worse than either CrtH or CrtD for PvE.

How do you figure this?

In a way, that's what it does now.

It grants a much lower (percentage-wise) DPS bonus the more damage your weapon does.

Which only adds to it not being very good.
It is not quite that simple. It is not always worse it depends.

And the only guns in the game that will outperform the fleet weapons are [acc] x3 and only if it would increase your hit chance over the fleet [acc] guns. I have done the math for that one before already and it is a simple fact.

To add some math fleet weapons [Dmg] x3 [Acc] vs [Acc] [CritD] [CritH]
The Toon
Has maxed Weapons Training and Energy Weapons, 6 in Energy Specialization. Also, borg console is used in these maths.

The Gear (All Dual Beam Banks) no consoles 123 weapon power
Mk 12 Fleet [Dmg]x3, [Acc] 1108.7 DPV
Mk 12 [CritD], [Acc], [CritH] 1044.7 DPV


Base Crit Chance = 7.62%, Base Severity = 80.4

Average DPV /w Crits
Mk 12 Fleet = 1176.7
Mk 12 [CritD], [Acc], [CritH] = 1145.6 9.66


Adding Blue Mk 11 consoles adds 84 damage to all 3 guns. First will be with 2, second 4.
Mk 12 Fleet = 1355 / 1533.2
Mk 12 STF = 1329.8 / 1514.1

I could compare a strait up [Dmg] x3 instead but do not own one. The way the math works makes [Acc] the ONLY highly desirable modifier because of how important it is to hit your target. Crit vs Dmg is very close that it does not really need changed aside from if it is indeed bugged not to work with boff abilities. And that would be a bug.

Its pretty simple, the higher your modifiers get the more valuable a higher base value becomes and vice a verse.

Last edited by bareel; 11-06-2012 at 04:14 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 857
# 24
11-06-2012, 05:16 AM
The effectiveness of the modifier will depend on the weapon and the circumstances of it's use.

In PvP [ACC] is king, but outside of that it's rather useless. Yes there's the overflow which will increase the number and damage of crits, but it's a very small increase. Without ACC in PvP you might as well unequip your weapons when facing a half decent escort (or even a cruiser), since hardly any of your shots will connect with the target.

[CrtD] and [CrtH] are great for high damage dealing or burst damage weapons, such as torpedos, dual heavy cannons (not so much dual cannons) and dual beam banks. With the right CrtD/CrtH mods a dual heavy cannon criting will do more damage then a torp, sometimes quite a bit more.

[Dmg] mods are however beneficial to low damage dealing weapons with a high firing rate, such as turrets and cannons. It's no big deal if these crit, but an increased sustained damage is a big plus.
Previously Alendiak
Daizen - Lvl 50 Engineer - Fleet Avenger
Selia - Lvl 50 Tactical - Fleet Avenger
Toval - Lvl 50 Tactical - Fleet Mogai
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,400
# 25
11-06-2012, 06:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bareel View Post
And the only guns in the game that will outperform the fleet weapons are [acc] x3 and only if it would increase your hit chance over the fleet [acc] guns. I have done the math for that one before already and it is a simple fact.

To add some math fleet weapons [Dmg] x3 [Acc] vs [Acc] [CritD] [CritH]
You didn't compare vs. MK XII [CrtH] x3 & MK XII [CrtD] x3, which would be a much better comparison.


Last edited by ussultimatum; 11-06-2012 at 06:58 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,400
# 26
11-06-2012, 06:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by orondis View Post
[Dmg] mods are however beneficial to low damage dealing weapons with a high firing rate, such as turrets and cannons. It's no big deal if these crit, but an increased sustained damage is a big plus.
Stacking multiple CrtH chances should still see a generally higher overall average increase.

Even if what you're saying is true, we are still stuck with the problem that all fleet weapons and many dilithium store weapons are either saddled with multiple DMG mods making them subpar choices for anything but the weakest weapons or they have a handful of scattered mods which is significantly less desirable than 3 of the same mod (ACC, CrtH, CrtD) stacked.


Last edited by ussultimatum; 11-06-2012 at 06:58 AM.
Ensign
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 22
# 27
11-06-2012, 08:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fulleatherjacket View Post
You pretty much answered your own question here. These weapons have to be purple quality but Cryptic can't let them be stupid overpowered with multiple Acc or Crit modifiers, so they go with the easy underpowered Dmg option so players who can't afford a Vesta or fleet weapons or quad cannons won't cry too much about it.


Cause that stuff is for PvE
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 68
# 28
11-06-2012, 11:34 AM
The [DMG] modifier is a little more intricate than a flat +5 bonus damage per volley

A blue {Ship Weapon} Mk (N) [Dmg]x2 = A White {Ship Weapon} Mk (N+1)

So:

Antiproton Dual Heavy Cannons Mk X [Dmg]x2 = Antiproton Dual Heavy Cannons Mk XI

Disruptor Beam Array Mk VIII [Dmg]x2 = Disruptor Beam Array Mk IX

Tricobalt Torpedo Launcher Mk XI [Dmg]x2 = Tricobalt Torpedo Launcher Mk XII


And so on...at least according to my research and simple arithmetic. Furthermore, I thought I should add this to deepen an informed discussion, rather than pick one side or the other
The Spice Must Flow...

Last edited by spessmehreen; 11-06-2012 at 11:36 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,033
# 29
11-06-2012, 12:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post
You didn't compare vs. MK XII [CrtH] x3 & MK XII [CrtD] x3, which would be a much better comparison.
No it wouldn't be as they would still be worse. It all comes down to ratios mate. The [Dmg] Mod increases the base damage by a FLAT number, the [CritH] Mod increases the critical multiplier by a FLAT number. So the only question left is what is the optimum ratio to get the largest final number.

Cryptic has made one part of that easy on us, since with items 1% crit chance has the same 'cost' as 10% crit severity you want to keep a ratio of 1 crit chance to 10 crit damage for optimum results. IE if you have 10% chance to crit and only 50% severity you will have a better overall DPS gain from 20% severity increase than you would a 2% crit chance increase.

In my previous comparison if I replaced the weapon with a [CritD] x3

Standard Average Volley /w Crit: 1156.5
/w Crit & 4 consoles: 1528.4

So the fleet weapon still does MORE average damage and in addition has accuracy. I do not personally know how much damage the [Dmg] mod adds exactly but it really is splitting hairs on it being a horrible mod. Using my example ship with the 4 consoles on, his skill set and the dual beams a weapon with [CritD]x2 Mod for a [Dmg] Mod to be better than a third [CritD] mod it would need to add 31.2 damage to the weapon. It is all relative and has to do with ratios.

And I would ask that if you wish to continue to argue this point with me that you show some math to back up your position. This [Dmg] is an aweful mod idea is simply not true. The only mod that needs a balance pass is the [Acc] mod and that has more to do with the flawed accuracy vs defense mechanics than it does with weapons.

@spessmehreen: Do you have the weapon damage formula by any chance?

*edit*

Just to clarify my position in case I'm being vague.

The actual difference in overall DPS gain from any of the weapon mods be it [Crit] or [Dmg] are so close to the same that it doesn't really matter which one you go for. The only weapon mod that is an exception is the [Acc] mod because of how the 'to hit' roll works and the importance of it. The only other exception is, and I do not personally know but it has been claimed, that torpedo skills are bugged and do not take the [Dmg] mod into account but that would be a bug.

Last edited by bareel; 11-06-2012 at 01:15 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 633
# 30
11-06-2012, 02:07 PM
*Sigh* another thing to test when i get some free time i guess.
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