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Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,173
# 31
11-06-2012, 04:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
We've been discussing weapon modifiers internally for a while now, based on feedback we've been getting over the past few months. It's likely that this will result in making some sweeping changes to modifier values and their associated effectiveness.

But such changes will not arrive in time for Season 7 launch.
When you say "sweeping changes" it smells of nerf. No offense.

Really, "sweeping changes" aren't needed; a simply buff to the [DMG] modifier would be decent, because constantly using it as the go-to modifier is weak.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 568
# 32
11-06-2012, 05:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by spessmehreen View Post
The [DMG] modifier is a little more intricate than a flat +5 bonus damage per volley
This.

Last I ran a full comparison, I found that the additional damage granted via [Dmg] is a flat increase that is heavilly affected by weapon type.

With Purple Mk XII equipment [Dmg] can be viable - however, with high levels of CrtH, CrtD and damage buffs, you should see more benefit from stacking other modifiers over [Dmg]. The problem really comes down to the fact that additional damage buffs (such as Attack Pattern Alpha) won't affect the flat [Dmg] Proc, but will affect crits, and thus the bonus damage granted via [CrtH] and [CrtD].

That said, 4 modifiers (or 5 modifiers!) instead of the standard 3 is going to be pretty hard to beat, regardless of what those modifiers are. [Acc]x3 is certainly still going to have a place in PVP content, but I suspect [CrtD] and [CrtH] stacking is only going to be situationally viable (for one-shot kills via increased spike damage).

(Though I still love my Polarised Disruptor collection...)

[edit: a quick search shows Flekh posted an accurate breakdown on [Dmg] mods quite recently here]

[ <<<--- @Maelwys --->>> ]

Last edited by maelwy5; 11-06-2012 at 06:14 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 568
# 33
11-06-2012, 06:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bareel View Post
It all comes down to how the in-game math works. Basically as fair as I'm aware this is how damage is determined in practice for a single volley.

Additive Modifiers, these are not effected by anything else and provide a flat addition to the base. The base is the weapon's damage itself which is determined by its mark level and rarity. Note that a Mk 10 white will get the same exact numeric bonus from these modifiers.

Weapon [Dmg] Mods
Console Bonus Damage
Skill Bonus Damage
Miscellaneous (accolades, etc)

Then you have your Multiplicative Modifiers. These are applied to the total of the above.

Crit Modifier (Crit Chance * Crit Severity so 5% chance at 100% severity would be a 1.05 modifier)
Boff Abilities (attack pattern omega, emergency power to weapons, etc)
Miscellaneous (energy levels, etc)
It's worth noting that some of what we might expect to be "multiplicative" buffs are in fact additive. And there are even several different types of "multiplicative" buffs (doh!)

1. First, you have a weapons base damage.

2. Then you have additive buffs: these include bonuses from skillpoints, [Dmg] Procs, any kind of "+damage%" buffs (Tactical Consoles, Attack Pattern Omega, Beam Overload, etc. etc.) All these bonuses get added up and applied to the base damage.

This is the value you typically end up seeing in the game's weapon tooltip readout.

3. Next you have Multiplicative Buffs. there are very few of these in the game - basically, it's only weapons power, enemy resistance debuffs (Attack Pattern Beta, Fire on my Mark, etc) and weapon firing time reductions (MACO 2-piece bonus, Cannon Rapid Fire, Projectile DOFFs, Mine Dispersion Patterns, etc). These multiplicative buffs are applied to the previous total (after additive buffs), and are applied independently.

For example: Let's say you run 4x DHCs. You can use skillpoint investment to increase your weapons damage by 100%, and then use APO for another 30%, for an inflicted total of 230% of your Base damage. You can then increase this further by using Cannon Rapid Fire 3 to increase your weapon's rate of fire by 50%, bringing your total inflicted damage to 230*1.5= 345% of your base damage. You can also reduce an enemy's resistance to your damage by 50%, resulting in you dealing 345*1.5=517.5% of your base weapon damage to an enemy's hull, (assuming no damage is lost due to resistance debuff diminishing returns, or firing from range!)

Multiplicative debuffs (such as damage dropoff over range) work the same way.

[ <<<--- @Maelwys --->>> ]
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 633
# 34
11-06-2012, 06:28 PM
My understanding was as above except i was lead to belive weapons power was addattive as well.
Cryptic Studios Team
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,385
# 35
11-06-2012, 07:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by badname834854 View Post
Really, "sweeping changes" aren't needed; a simply buff to the [DMG] modifier would be decent, because constantly using it as the go-to modifier is weak.
Increasing the effectiveness of a core modifier mechanic involved in our itemization that is present in the entirety of the game's content and combat systems... that's a sweeping change. It may, indeed, be the one we decide to make. But it is not a change that can be lightly made without considering the ramifications it could have on the rest of the game.
-=-=-=-=-=-
Jeremy Randall
Cryptic - Systems Design
"Play smart!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Me
Kurland here...
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,400
# 36
11-06-2012, 07:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
Increasing the effectiveness of a core modifier mechanic involved in our itemization that is present in the entirety of the game's content and combat systems... that's a sweeping change. It may, indeed, be the one we decide to make. But it is not a change that can be lightly made without considering the ramifications it could have on the rest of the game.

Hi Bort,

Without going into what you guys are considering for the future, would you be able to enlighten us on the design intent (up until now) of the mods and the reason [DMG] is so often added to things like Quad Cannons, Aux DHCs, Spiral Wave Disruptors, Fleet Weapons, Dilithium Store Weapons, etc.?


Is it because [DMG] is easier to keep under control in terms of power added?

Is it because the weapons are intended to be good, but not the best?

Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 91
# 37
11-06-2012, 10:59 PM
Yeah... Because [Dmg] is nice and all but for PvP and eng-game content, its multitudes more useless than an [Acc] modifier. I'd love to see quad cannons with ONE [Acc] mod on them so they'd be more useful against highly maneuverable targets (or heavy plasmas/tricos).
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 568
# 38
11-07-2012, 02:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by carl103 View Post
My understanding was as above except i was lead to belive weapons power was addattive as well.
Weapons power is an exception, it's another thing that's a bit... odd.

The baseline that default weapon damage tooltips (the ones you get when you're not a space map) are calculated from is 50 weapons energy. And given what we know about percentage-based damage buffs, you'd expect that every point in weapons energy you have over 50 would grant you an extra 2% Base Energy Weapon DPS, additively.

However it's not that simple. You can see weapons power stacking non-additively with certain additive buffs... and if it's drained to zero, you will do no energy damage at all (not "-100% base damage", which would mean you'd still do some damage as long as you had a few additive buffs active).

[ <<<--- @Maelwys --->>> ]
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 891
# 39
11-07-2012, 03:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by badname834854 View Post
When you say "sweeping changes" it smells of nerf. No offense.

Really, "sweeping changes" aren't needed; a simply buff to the [DMG] modifier would be decent, because constantly using it as the go-to modifier is weak.
I would say they are needed. The difference between modifiers is negligible in all things except PvP.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,247
# 40
11-07-2012, 07:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by maelwy5 View Post
This.
[edit: a quick search shows Flekh posted an accurate breakdown on [Dmg] mods quite recently here]
So it does not increase the actual weapon damage but instead acts as an independent proc that is not effected by anything? WHY!!!!!!!!

I stand corrected

Actually though in that case even though I'm going to guess that it doesn't does that mean it ignores enemy resistances perhaps? I doubt it but that would be kinda nice.

*edit extra info*
Just tested with my tac. When using APA, Go Down Fighting, and Tac Fleet combined a 104.5% total damage increase for me, the fleet weapon went from 1438.8 DPV to 2859 a 98.1% increase whereas my borg went from 1374.8 to 2850 or a 107% increase.

My simple conclusions from that are pretty simple but please let me know if I goofed Maelwyns as this was a quick n dirty test.

1) [Dmg] Mod does indeed not scale properly with other modifiers. I consider this a bug though personally as I cannot fathom a single reason why that would be the desired behavior I hope Bort will chime in on this.
2) The +% damage boosts are actually a multiplier not added to the base damage like skill/consoles, but they do stack additively with themselves. Those being the Tac Captains abilities along with possibly APO.

Last edited by bareel; 11-07-2012 at 07:48 AM.
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