Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,912
# 91
11-29-2012, 02:48 AM
I would rather beams had their drain reduced with a small damage boost, 6 beam broadsides do need to be more viable.

Given cruisers are supposed to have the best warp cores in the fleet give them more bonus to each subsystem and/or give them resistance to all energy drains (Building over time as per the Aegis set shield bonus) this would allow cruiser damage to build up during a longer fight (as per science ships) it could also help with the power chomping FAW, an extra +5 to all subsystems would improve their maneuverability, resistance, healing and damage.

Then for engineers buff their Nadion inversion as it really is weak by comparison to other captain skills.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,395
# 92
11-29-2012, 03:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sparhawk View Post
FAW was indeed better once upon a time, but it has always been more akin to cannon scatter volley skill than the rapid cannon fire skill.
That's true, but I'm not sure there needs to be a "rapid fire" skill for beams... for one, there already is a single-target direct damage buff similar to rapid fire, it's called BO (and no, I don't mean body odor).

One solution, as others have said, may be to significantly lessen the innate power drain for snoozers as a class. So a beam overload on a single array, while not being omgroflstomp, would add up to some strong, fairly spammable pressure damage. Another would be to strengthen the subsystem targeting skills while balancing them with longer cooldowns, making them viable high-level powers. Knocking someone's engines or shields off is a damn strong damage buff, after all.

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Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,462
# 93
11-29-2012, 03:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shimmerless View Post
That's true, but I'm not sure there needs to be a "rapid fire" skill for beams... for one, there already is a single-target direct damage buff similar to rapid fire, it's called BO (and no, I don't mean body odor).
Beam Overload doesn't really INCREASE your damage, it just rearranges it by front loading a powerful shot followed by weaker shots as your power recovers. Unless you use it while under Nadion Inversion (stupid-long cooldown), or immediately buff with a battery (stupid-long cooldown) or EPTW (boff slot and not as effective) after using it.

The problem is that fire at will and beam overload both have drawbacks. Fire at will murders your power level and aggros the entire universe if you use it with arrays (though, DBB+FAW is great for ships that can actually turn well enough to use DBBs), and Overload has the aforementioned power drain. They require secondary abilities or actions in order to compensate for their drawbacks and make them a net gain. Cannon abilities.... don't have drawbacks. Rapid Fire is a straight up "moar dakka!!!" single target thing, and even Scatter Volley is a DPS increase along with multi-target ability. Neither of them are especially cruel to your power level when you use them. They take your guns and they make them more effective, period.

Further consider that the majority of cruisers can't use many tactical abilities, not even the level 3 versions of the beam tactics.

The only time I've ever seen a broadside attack that made me say "Woah" in the same awed fashion as seeing a twinked escort melt 3 elite spheres in about 6 seconds, is using 8 beam arrays with FAW3 and Nadion Inversion. It does quite serious damage to a multitude of targets. But you can only do it every 3 minutes. You can try fighting the power drain of FAW broadside beam boats with EPTW and batteries and EPS Transfer and that DEM doff that adds drain resistance, but in the final analysis trying to milk reliable and significant damage out of a cruiser this way throws away the healing and resists you will need to survive all the return fire.

So yeah. Beam array broadsiding is terrible because of the power drain, beam tactical abilities are complicated and doubled-edged.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 765
# 94
11-29-2012, 03:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shimmerless View Post
That's true, but I'm not sure there needs to be a "rapid fire" skill for beams... for one, there already is a single-target direct damage buff similar to rapid fire, it's called BO (and no, I don't mean body odor).

One solution, as others have said, may be to significantly lessen the innate power drain for snoozers as a class. So a beam overload on a single array, while not being omgroflstomp, would add up to some strong, fairly spammable pressure damage. Another would be to strengthen the subsystem targeting skills while balancing them with longer cooldowns, making them viable high-level powers. Knocking someone's engines or shields off is a damn strong damage buff, after all.
An much earlier version of Beam Overload actually use to have an "bug" that let the skill affect all beam arrays on a ship. Broadside cruisers for that period of time were something to behold. Not a suggestion, just an amusing anecdote.

Lessening power drain would definitely be a good start though.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,912
# 95
11-29-2012, 04:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sparhawk View Post
An much earlier version of Beam Overload actually use to have an "bug" that let the skill affect all beam arrays on a ship. Broadside cruisers for that period of time were something to behold. Not a suggestion
Actually I think this could be reworked into the game, make Beam Overload affect all beams for 50% of the current power drain (per beam) and increase all beam damage by 50% (For a 6 beam cruiser you would have the same effect as current but spread across all the beams) for 1 firing sequence (4 hits per beam at 50% extra damage) giving a fair mount of damage with less recovery time, this would make a broadside something once again to "behold". It would also make weapon batteries more useful on cruisers as they would offer that instant recovery many would want/need.

What FAW needs is for accuracy mods to be taken into account, needs more DPS boost at it's lower levels and for lower drain on the power system (which would add to the DPS boost), the only problem then is the amount of competition between these two skills, at the moment I dare not use BO as it plays havoc with my capability to do damage as it is whereas I can use FAW to great effect covering an enemy fleet in AP:B so escorts can wipe them out in seconds.

I also think the gcd for these could be dropped as the power price of doing it would be impractical unless you know with absolute certainty you are going down so you'd have something comparable to GDF a sort of "I'm going down, lets do max damage before I do" of course this is likely overpowered so I can't support it myself, I'm just putting it out there.

Any criticism of of these ideas is welcome
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,966
# 96
11-29-2012, 04:27 AM
Its not as terrible to broadside as it seems if you run 150ish weapon power, easy enough to accomplish in several escorts and most cruisers. But a buff to beam arrays will be more beneficial for a beam escort than a beam cruiser.

But once again in that situation +15 weapon power > +5 weapon power.

It is the hull, the cruiser itself that is the problem. The foundation is broken and provides no inherently useful benefits unlike the other hulls that mean anything. Eight weapon slots = pointless and +10% max hull = pointless.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,912
# 97
11-29-2012, 04:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bareel View Post
But a buff to beam arrays will be more beneficial for a beam escort than a beam cruiser.
Even so, escort pilots looking for DPS will still go for DHCs as they still do over 2x the damage of a beam array, 3DHCs will level with a 6 beam cruiser (I say 6 because 8 is power suicide, I've tried), anything more than that is beyond said cruiser, then you add buffs and the difference is even greater.

A slight buff to beam damage and/or a reduction in their power drain would go some way to helping cruisers without affecting escorts, then there is the much needed revamp of beam buff powers would bring them to a more level playing field.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 765
# 98
11-29-2012, 04:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bareel View Post
Its not as terrible to broadside as it seems if you run 150ish weapon power, easy enough to accomplish in several escorts and most cruisers. But a buff to beam arrays will be more beneficial for a beam escort than a beam cruiser.

But once again in that situation +15 weapon power > +5 weapon power.
Very true unless Cryptic were to introduce an new class(es) of beam arrays that were not useable by escorts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bareel View Post
It is the hull, the cruiser itself that is the problem. The foundation is broken and provides no inherently useful benefits unlike the other hulls that mean anything. Eight weapon slots = pointless and +10% max hull = pointless.
I agree it's a large part of the problem, but what would help with this flaw? An additional +5 power to all subsystems, add innate resistance bonuses to the hull, more raw hull (say 50% instead of 10%), +2 to turn rates, an bonus that would reduce energy weapon power drain? There are a lot of potential options.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,757
# 99
11-29-2012, 05:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by adamkafei View Post
Even so, escort pilots looking for DPS will still go for DHCs as they still do over 2x the damage of a beam array, 3DHCs will level with a 6 beam cruiser (I say 6 because 8 is power suicide, I've tried), anything more than that is beyond said cruiser, then you add buffs and the difference is even greater.

A slight buff to beam damage and/or a reduction in their power drain would go some way to helping cruisers without affecting escorts, then there is the much needed revamp of beam buff powers would bring them to a more level playing field.
Assuming a standard beam array is meant to punch as hard as a Dual Heavy Cannon.

Curently the fanbase is still comparing Baseballs to basketballs and its not a fair comparison becuase while they are both balls they are both equal to what one uses them for.

Beam Arrays = wide AoE attack that requires little manuevering or attention to details. One can litterly pick a target in range and fire from almost any angle at them. Some angles in fact that the escort must work twice as hard to overcome becuase thier weapons of choice while doing more damage have a too narrow a firing arc unless you are pointing directly at your target.

Dual Beam Banks = Higher damage at the cost of a narrower firing arc.

Beam Arrays can do excellent damage with 6-8 beams if one pushes the weapons power beyond 125 for the duration of an attack.
Engineers are especially good at this since they have a inherent power conserving ability and it can even be accomplished via DEM and certain DOffs that help conserve power.

The belief that a Cruiser with beam arrays is not a challenge to the Escorts supremancy in battle is not true anymore and is fading fast.

The idea that one good way to help the Cruiser is to accent thier sheer mass in the form of better hitpoints (though healing may have to be assessed to keep the Cruiser from being beyond death) say a 25-30% increase.
Of course this will have to be fairly done to all Cruisers, Battle Cruisers and hybrids ingame.

Why so low?
Simple. I've seen too many Good Cruiser players flying around Ker'rat with a pack of BoPs, Raptors and Battle Cruisers behind them doing nothing until finally the sheer number of attackers over whelms them.
This is not the characteristics of a weak vessel.

Changes to Beam Arrays and Dual Beam Banks that have already been discussed add nausieum would help as not the Cruiser has more than one wide firing arc styled weapon.
Create the Heavy beam arrays and put them ingame as the new top end damaging beam weapon instead of dual beams.

Do not Increase the turn rate of Federation Cruisers. Instead reduce the deficiency that low engine power has just for Cruisers so that they can zero-axis spin quicker to rotate a shield facing towards the enemy.

Remove any effect Tactical Captain Buffs or tactical BOff buffs have on Science powers.
The Tac/Escort pairing will still be the best DD in the game but only with his on toys now.

The background premise of this thread is still trying to make the Cruiser a Cruiscort in my opinion and that is a path to us as a playerbase being right back here in 6 months complaining about how bad escorts have it and how easy Crusiers have become and frankly I'm tired of the silly back in forth this game has on balance that flip/flops everytime somebody thinks thier favorite "thing" is lackluster compared to others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bareel
It is the hull, the cruiser itself that is the problem. The foundation is broken and provides no inherently useful benefits unlike the other hulls that mean anything. Eight weapon slots = pointless and +10% max hull = pointless.
I must agree. Hull gamewide is somewhat useless unless you are a master of Hull and/or resist stacking.
It is too easily destroyed and too quickly destroyed. Hull should be hard to hurt and slow to heal in my opinion.

How many times have we seen a Cruiser or other vessel in canon still functioning with whole decks exposed to space due to being attacked. Kirk made a carreer out of it.
Roy Hatch (stryker) soldier, friend, and good man.
1945-2014
RIP

Last edited by bitemepwe; 11-29-2012 at 05:49 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,027
# 100
11-29-2012, 06:27 AM
We know from ships like the Fleet Olympic (which has an innate ability that is similar to the Biofuncton Monitor Console) that it is possible for Cryptic to assign ships capabilities that are very much like consoles or skill points.
Perhaps instead of increased hitpoints...what about giving cruisers "hull plating" and "armor reinforcements" points?

http://www.stowiki.org/Skill:_Starship_Hull_Plating

http://www.stowiki.org/Skill:_Starsh...Reinforcements

This would make them more resistant without the need to increase their HP in any way.

I'd also suggest that the less maneuverable the ship is, the more bonus points it should get.
This way "sluggish" ships would benefit more, making them more attractive.
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