Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 771
# 241
12-13-2012, 11:58 PM
[quote=bitemepwe;7074521]
Quote:
Having consistant damage at any range and giving the beams more damage as one gets closer to target is inconsistent and too powerful.

They would hit the same at 10km or 1km and hit harder as one closed range????

And then this makes them sniper weapons. All one has to do is constantly run from the Target and kite them to death with damage that does not depriciate over range.

I do not agree with this idea.
Just to clarify things, these ideas were not meant to be mutually inclusive. They were meant to be individual possible options. All of those options at once would obviously be overpowered.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,202
# 242
12-15-2012, 01:00 AM
If you want your cruiser to dps then you're doing it wrong.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,553
# 243
12-15-2012, 05:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by diogene0 View Post
If you want your cruiser to dps then you're doing it wrong.
More accurately:

If you want your cruiser to DPS and still be an awesome tank, you're expecting too much. If you want your cruiser to tank like a boss (what it was designed to do) and still hit like a freight train, you're expecting too much.

However if your cruiser can't do either one successfully, they you are indeed doing it wrong.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 144
# 244
12-17-2012, 10:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hereticknight085 View Post
More accurately:

If you want your cruiser to DPS and still be an awesome tank, you shoud fly an escort
corrected for you.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,553
# 245
12-17-2012, 03:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by xiphenon View Post
corrected for you.
There was no correction necessary. I have been flying cruisers for as long as I have been playing. I have dabbled in escorts and raptors, but in the end I always go back to my space whale. And it can put out some pretty serious damage, at the cost of a lot of tankiness I'll grant you, but cruisers if set up right can still do some respectable DPS.

You will note in my original statement, I stated that if you wanted to DPS, but I did not state the level of DPS. Of course I know that cruisers will never come close to escort DPS, but tbh they aren't that far behind. Your average escort running full mk XI blue consoles with mk XII weapons will usually sustain 5.5k DPS with spikes up to 12-18k. Your average cruiser doing the same thing will sustain 3.7k DPS with spikes up to 8k DPS. Total DPS is not that far behind.

Your "correction" would have been accurate if I had stated that if you want STRONG dps from your cruiser. As is, I just stated DPS.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Tired of Wasting EC and Time trying to get Superior Romulan Operative BOffs? Here's a cheap and easy way to get them, with an almost 100% chance of success.
Why the Devs can't make PvE content harder.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,048
# 246
12-17-2012, 03:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hereticknight085 View Post
but cruisers if set up right can still do some respectable DPS.
I second this after my recent tweaks to my Excelsior build, I do need to run a DPS meter on it but it puts out a good 7-10k per volley with 2 23k volleys in a minute happening every three minutes. on top of this it still tanks very well indeed, Heretick has seen it happen multiple times, so if you get the right cruiser with the right build you can DPS fairly well AND tank while you do so.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,342
# 247
12-17-2012, 06:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by adamkafei View Post
I second this after my recent tweaks to my Excelsior build, I do need to run a DPS meter on it but it puts out a good 7-10k per volley with 2 23k volleys in a minute happening every three minutes. on top of this it still tanks very well indeed, Heretick has seen it happen multiple times, so if you get the right cruiser with the right build you can DPS fairly well AND tank while you do so.
Any chance you could let me take a look at that build? I am curious to see how close my build is to it.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,048
# 248
12-18-2012, 12:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by whamhammer1 View Post
Any chance you could let me take a look at that build? I am curious to see how close my build is to it.
Sure

http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/sh...&postcount=139
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,553
# 249
12-19-2012, 05:12 AM
I think the main reason that cruisers get such a bad rap as combat ships is because of the sheer ludicrous number of Cruiser FAILboats that populate the Federation ranks in STO. I actually have lost count of the number of times I was ashamed to fly a Cruiser simply due to the ridiculous level of fail I witnessed from these magnificent ships.

Examples:
Skittle-Turret Odyssey Operations Cruiser. I ran into this same boat at least a dozen times in a number of STFs and fleet actions over the course of a two week period.

Rainbow DBB/Skittle Turret Regent. I ran into this boat 4 times in the same day. Never saw it again. For that matter, never saw that player again.

Full Phaser MUAC running 6/2 setup with quantums. A viable and legit setup. But only doing 350 damage per shot. *facepalm

I could go on and on, hell I could probably start a new thread of fail cruiser builds we have run across, but that's not the point I am trying to make. Cruisers get the sense and feel of being weak as hell, because the majority of the players using them are weak players. They don't seem to understand the strengths and weaknesses of their ships, or overcompensate for them (turret oddy). Or don't trust their ship to survive enough to let her loose (MUAC with all power to shields, I swear, since his shields never went down when he got attacked), or just fail completely (DBB turret regent... ugh).

As a result of the majority of cruiser pilots being like that (majority, not all mind you), cruisers tend to get a really really bad name. I mean you have players that can do things with a tactical odyssey that will leave your mouth hanging, and others that will leave you feeling sick (if you're a cruiser pilot), or laughing (escort pilot).

TL;DR
Cruisers themselves are great ships, they can actually do a lot of damage and stay alive in the process, and in some cases be excellent healers. It's just that fail pilots that can't use them to their full potential are the majority of what you see in cruisers and as a result, give the rest of us that are actually competent a bad name.

Note:
There have been times where I have actually been given crap (usually by an overzealous escort pilot, or tac cruiser captain in his purty little Regent/Excelsior) for showing up in an ESTF in an Odyssey until they realize I can maintain a quite high DPS, high enough that I don't hold the team back. And I can usually keep the team alive pretty well with healing ability. You won't find that ability anywhere else. A ship that can deal some decent damage while still being able to heal his team-mates back to full from the brink of death (ok, some sci ships can do that, but that's not the point here).

I once asked one of these guys why he was getting on my case for my ship choice, and he said: "You're an Oddy. Those ships are giant flying wastes of space. They can't hurt anything, and are useless. Get out of that piece of wasted money as soon as you can."

I asked him why he said that, and he responded (after some profanity at me for being another stupid engi): "I have never seen a successful Oddy. They always die, they always can't dps, and they always fail as healers. It's just a fail ship. Stop bothering me."

Sufficed to say, it took most of the STF and me saving his rear twice from instant death for him to finally relent and say that "Ok, not all of you space whales are bad. But trust me, you're better off in an escort, that ship sucks." Then Donatra hit the whole team with one of her triple torp spreads, and mine was the only survivor. He shut up after that. At the end of the STF (after I had held aggro on donatra for the rest of her health bar) he grudgingly admitted that maybe it wasn't such a terrible ship. A victory, albeit a small one.

Forgive the long post, my thoughts just kept on coming XD...
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Tired of Wasting EC and Time trying to get Superior Romulan Operative BOffs? Here's a cheap and easy way to get them, with an almost 100% chance of success.
Why the Devs can't make PvE content harder.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 434
# 250
12-19-2012, 05:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hereticknight085 View Post
I think the main reason that cruisers get such a bad rap as combat ships is because of the sheer ludicrous number of Cruiser FAILboats that populate the Federation ranks in STO. I actually have lost count of the number of times I was ashamed to fly a Cruiser simply due to the ridiculous level of fail I witnessed from these magnificent ships.

Examples:
Skittle-Turret Odyssey Operations Cruiser. I ran into this same boat at least a dozen times in a number of STFs and fleet actions over the course of a two week period.

Rainbow DBB/Skittle Turret Regent. I ran into this boat 4 times in the same day. Never saw it again. For that matter, never saw that player again.

Full Phaser MUAC running 6/2 setup with quantums. A viable and legit setup. But only doing 350 damage per shot. *facepalm

I could go on and on, hell I could probably start a new thread of fail cruiser builds we have run across, but that's not the point I am trying to make. Cruisers get the sense and feel of being weak as hell, because the majority of the players using them are weak players. They don't seem to understand the strengths and weaknesses of their ships, or overcompensate for them (turret oddy). Or don't trust their ship to survive enough to let her loose (MUAC with all power to shields, I swear, since his shields never went down when he got attacked), or just fail completely (DBB turret regent... ugh).

As a result of the majority of cruiser pilots being like that (majority, not all mind you), cruisers tend to get a really really bad name. I mean you have players that can do things with a tactical odyssey that will leave your mouth hanging, and others that will leave you feeling sick (if you're a cruiser pilot), or laughing (escort pilot).

TL;DR
Cruisers themselves are great ships, they can actually do a lot of damage and stay alive in the process, and in some cases be excellent healers. It's just that fail pilots that can't use them to their full potential are the majority of what you see in cruisers and as a result, give the rest of us that are actually competent a bad name.

Note:
There have been times where I have actually been given crap (usually by an overzealous escort pilot, or tac cruiser captain in his purty little Regent/Excelsior) for showing up in an ESTF in an Odyssey until they realize I can maintain a quite high DPS, high enough that I don't hold the team back. And I can usually keep the team alive pretty well with healing ability. You won't find that ability anywhere else. A ship that can deal some decent damage while still being able to heal his team-mates back to full from the brink of death (ok, some sci ships can do that, but that's not the point here).

I once asked one of these guys why he was getting on my case for my ship choice, and he said: "You're an Oddy. Those ships are giant flying wastes of space. They can't hurt anything, and are useless. Get out of that piece of wasted money as soon as you can."

I asked him why he said that, and he responded (after some profanity at me for being another stupid engi): "I have never seen a successful Oddy. They always die, they always can't dps, and they always fail as healers. It's just a fail ship. Stop bothering me."

Sufficed to say, it took most of the STF and me saving his rear twice from instant death for him to finally relent and say that "Ok, not all of you space whales are bad. But trust me, you're better off in an escort, that ship sucks." Then Donatra hit the whole team with one of her triple torp spreads, and mine was the only survivor. He shut up after that. At the end of the STF (after I had held aggro on donatra for the rest of her health bar) he grudgingly admitted that maybe it wasn't such a terrible ship. A victory, albeit a small one.

Forgive the long post, my thoughts just kept on coming XD...
After reading through all the replies to this thread, this post tells exactly how it is. You can have the best ship, gear, boffs, doffs, etc all you want but if you don't understand how it all works together and can fine tune the available possibilities of the synergies then you might aswell be flying a miranda.

Simply put if a player is not willing to learn then move on, if you find a player willing to learn then help them improve their setups for thier playstyles (which in turn they might help the next player they see; similar thing myself and a few friends did first time the current STF's came out to improve the over all success rate back in the day when pugging.).

I myself as a tac; fly a tactical oddy and the command bortasq'ue; both haveing a min/maxed build where possible based on my experience.. I still fine tune my build if I see a way to boost my (keyword being here) Sustained dps and HOT's as needed, but generally I can hold my own and push out a decent amount of dps to hold aggro with a few escorts shooting the same target even without threat control.
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