Commander
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 374
# 261
12-19-2012, 10:27 AM
I do not have a lot of experience pvping, so I don't know how much my 2 cents will matter.

My primary char is a VA Tac that flies an Assault Cruiser. I try to fly a Tank/DPS hybrid. In order to achieve a very high DPS, I stack weapon power consoles and powers like EPtW and Aux2Battery, ensuring that my weapon power levels do not dip much below 90 when I'm attacking.

Tanking is another story. I'm not that great at tanking. I can withstand a heavy assault for a short amount of time, but I lack the build and experience required to "Tank Indefinitely." Example: Long time ago when the Borg set was 4 pieces, I'd pvp cruisers with the 3-piece bonus and a High-cap Covariant Shield. I could not....COULD NOT break through their shields even for a second. It was literally impossible.

That's what it seems to me the Cruiser should be in PvP. With Escorts, its about combining all firepower to output so much damage the enemy can't survive - winning before they have their chance to get the upper hand. With Cruisers, it should be the opposite. You have to outlast your opponent to the point where you're priming your attack when they're coming off their high.

Just my 2 cents. I don't know how to do this, but it seems like it should work.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 69
# 262
12-19-2012, 11:07 AM
Personally I like the cruiser playstyle and role but I have also accepted that the cruiser class is not like the classic Star Trek cruiser from TV or the movies. I think a lot of people watch the shows and expect that experience to translate to this game but it doesn't, and that causes confusion and frustration.

I just wish cruisers were a little better at healing team mate shields. I'd love to have a cruiser with a lt com science station so I can lay down a really decent science team or a really good TSS (star cruiser refit?).

Off Topic but related - the whole engineering captain team power thing? Well the way I see it the Engineer Captain should make a cruiser almost indestructable that so he can stay in a fight and continue to throw hull heals and extend shields on his escort buddies. That's not being selfish, that's the way an Eng/Cruiser combo should work.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,474
# 263
12-19-2012, 11:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitemepwe View Post
But how are they balanced to the KDF ideology and why is the Fed Cruisers not balanced to thiers?

The Consoles slots differ with more Engineering for the fed cruisers with less Tactical and more Tactical with less science for the KDF.
+damage

Quote:
The turn rate differences between the Cruiser and Battle Cruiser is aproxiamtely between 2-4 points depending on vessel choice.
Wrong way to think of it. The turn rate difference between a cruiser and battlecruiser is approximately 30-40%. This translates into the ability to take up and maintain efficient firing positions, which means

+damage

Quote:
The KDF tends to have larger crews over the federation.
Crew is a completely broken mechanic and is irrelevant.

Quote:
The federation Cruisers tend to have more base hull than the KDF Battle Cruisers.
Not by a useful amount. Survival is about how much you can harden your ship and how fast you can reverse damage. The extra 2000-3000 hitpoints that federation cruisers tend to have doesn't really matter when both ships have access to the same healing abilities and armor.

Quote:
The fed Cruiser gets +5 to all power levels, the KDF BC get +10 weapons and +10 engines.
+damage, +damage

Also worth pointing out, once again, that only the KDF has the plasmonic leech. This is a minimum of an additional +5 to all power levels, +10 with minimum investment, and as much as +15 if you get serious about it. Federation has the MACO shield, which only provides its bonus if you're the one being shot at while the plasmonic leech can offer the same benefit any time you're the one doing the shooting.

Quote:
The KDF battle cruiser can mount cannons of all types and has a standard cloak.
+damage

The complaint against whale cruisers is that they are underpowered in firepower, and guess what; KDF's battlecruisers have significantly more firepower. They have the option of carrying the highest-DPS weaponry, they have more weapon power, more tactical consoles, and better agility. KDF's battlecruisers combine high durability with decent firepower. They won't beat an escort in damage output per alphastrike, but they can hang on bulldog-fashion and savage their opponent while the escorts fly off to recharge and lick their wounds. Battlecruisers come out strong for damage output in the long game.

So going back to your original question, why are the Federation's cruisers not balanced for their ideology... The Federation values life, advancement, and stability. They like diplomacy and science and engineering. The KDF likes battle and conquest and glory. The basic problem with the Federation's cruisers is that they'd be really good at things that aren't even in the game. Because the game's space aspects are entirely focused on combat and the KDF is better at combat, battlecruisers come out ahead.

And tanking? If my choice of team was 1 whale tank plus 4 escorts or 1 escort plus 4 battlecruisers, I'd go with the battlecruisers. They're going to lock shields and march over everything in their path without caring about aggro or making sure the "right" person is the one getting shot.

Maybe the real question is why are dedicated tanks so useless given that ships with greater firepower can survive just fine without them.

Obviously just my opinions but there ya go.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,474
# 264
12-19-2012, 12:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tudenom View Post
I just wish cruisers were a little better at healing team mate shields.
You have Extend Shields, which offers much better "up time" and shield hardening than TSS. Throw ExShields 3 on somebody who's even half awake and they're going to become functionally immortal for 30 seconds at a time.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,553
# 265
12-20-2012, 12:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sonulinu2 View Post
Would you mind sharing the end results of your research on this then please? If you have already done so, would you please post the link? I personally think it is difficult to be both a good tank and a good cruiser/dps'er, but am willing to learn.
Alright, as promised, now that I am much more awake, my cruiser build that resulted from all my research and testing. Disclaimer: This build is not meant to be maximized in anything in particular, only be effective in everything. I cannot out-damage cruisers that are geared entirely towards damage, I cannot out-tank cruisers geared entirely towards tanking, and I cannot out-heal cruiser geared entirely towards healing. But I can do all 3 of those with moderate to decent effectiveness.

Odyssey Tactical Cruiser

Weapons:
Fore: AP BA mkXII [acc][crth][borg]x3, Quantum Torpedo Launcher mk XII [acc][crth][borg]
Aft: AP BA mk XII [acc][crth][borg]x4
(yes, I use STF borg weapons, what of it, they were cheap and easy to get =P)

Consoles:
Tactical: AP Mag Regulator mk XII (green) x3
Engineering: Neutronium Alloy mk XI (blue) x4
Science: Field Generator mk XI (blue), Universal Assimilated Module, Chevron Separation Console

BOff Setup:
Lt Tactical: TT1, APB1
LtCmdr Universal: TS1, BFAW2, APD2
Lt Science: HE1, TSS2
Ensign Universal: HE1
Cmdr Engineering: EPtS1, EPtW2, ET3, Aux2SIF3

DOff Setup: (all purple)
Conn Officer (TT cd and buff) x2
Damage Control Engineer x2
Warp Core Engineer

Results:
When I am just casually using abilities, I get right around 3700 constant DPS (usually a little higher, depends on how lazy I am being and how often my WCE procs), with the ability to spike up to 5200 or higher (this one depends more on crits and distance from target, in addition to how often I use my torpedo launcher). Highest DPS that I recorded was 8k for a 30 second period. Then my EPS transfer skill went on cd, and my DPS dropped back to 3700. My overall survivability is acceptable, but not amazing, as is my healing ability.

As stated, it's a balanced 7/10 for all 3 categories.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Tired of Wasting EC and Time trying to get Superior Romulan Operative BOffs? Here's a cheap and easy way to get them, with an almost 100% chance of success.
Why the Devs can't make PvE content harder.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 154
# 266
12-20-2012, 01:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by momaw View Post
+damage



Wrong way to think of it. The turn rate difference between a cruiser and battlecruiser is approximately 30-40%. This translates into the ability to take up and maintain efficient firing positions, which means

+damage



Crew is a completely broken mechanic and is irrelevant.



Not by a useful amount. Survival is about how much you can harden your ship and how fast you can reverse damage. The extra 2000-3000 hitpoints that federation cruisers tend to have doesn't really matter when both ships have access to the same healing abilities and armor.



+damage, +damage

Also worth pointing out, once again, that only the KDF has the plasmonic leech. This is a minimum of an additional +5 to all power levels, +10 with minimum investment, and as much as +15 if you get serious about it. Federation has the MACO shield, which only provides its bonus if you're the one being shot at while the plasmonic leech can offer the same benefit any time you're the one doing the shooting.



+damage

The complaint against whale cruisers is that they are underpowered in firepower, and guess what; KDF's battlecruisers have significantly more firepower. They have the option of carrying the highest-DPS weaponry, they have more weapon power, more tactical consoles, and better agility. KDF's battlecruisers combine high durability with decent firepower. They won't beat an escort in damage output per alphastrike, but they can hang on bulldog-fashion and savage their opponent while the escorts fly off to recharge and lick their wounds. Battlecruisers come out strong for damage output in the long game.

So going back to your original question, why are the Federation's cruisers not balanced for their ideology... The Federation values life, advancement, and stability. They like diplomacy and science and engineering. The KDF likes battle and conquest and glory. The basic problem with the Federation's cruisers is that they'd be really good at things that aren't even in the game. Because the game's space aspects are entirely focused on combat and the KDF is better at combat, battlecruisers come out ahead.

And tanking? If my choice of team was 1 whale tank plus 4 escorts or 1 escort plus 4 battlecruisers, I'd go with the battlecruisers. They're going to lock shields and march over everything in their path without caring about aggro or making sure the "right" person is the one getting shot.

Maybe the real question is why are dedicated tanks so useless given that ships with greater firepower can survive just fine without them.

Obviously just my opinions but there ya go.

FYI, only 1 federation cruiser which has more HP than a KDF cruiser (Fleet Negh'var), and thats the galaxy class. The FleetStarcruiser, Fleet assualt, fleet advanced heavy cruise have the same hull and shield stats, odyssey has less hull but 0.05 more shields. The Galaxy class has 1,100 more hull.

So, because the KDF are damage based, they need 2 to 3 more turn, cloak and cannons. To balance this against the fed, they get minus 1 battery slot.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,474
# 267
12-20-2012, 09:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by chi1701d View Post
To balance this against the fed, they get minus 1 battery slot.
Which is kind of laughable.

I had the inkling of an idea though when you said that about batteries though. There was one episode of TNG where they were in the middle of some kind of power crisis and something was said about already being maxed out on N auxiliary fusion generators where N was somewhere in the neighborhood of 5. What I get from this is that the Galaxy class has a warp core for providing the bulk of its power but has a bunch of secondary generators that can be warmed up if the fuel cost can be justified.

Is it too far fetched to extend this to all Federation cruisers in general, and say that they should get a built in "auxiliary generators" skill that can develop more power as needed? Put it in the same place that the carrier commands would occupy. You get a button for each of weapons, shields, engines and auxiliary, and you can toggle each one on and off. There would be a total of +20 power shared between all of the systems you are feeding auxiliary power into. So this means you could have for example +5 to everything, +10 to weapons and shields, or +20 to auxiliary alone, depending on what you need at the moment.

It would give Federation cruisers considerably more meat, and stay within their "Engineering and science is awesome!" philosophy.

Last edited by momaw; 12-20-2012 at 09:48 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 271
# 268
12-20-2012, 10:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by momaw View Post

Is it too far fetched to extend this to all Federation cruisers in general, and say that they should get a built in "auxiliary generators" skill that can develop more power as needed? Put it in the same place that the carrier commands would occupy. You get a button for each of weapons, shields, engines and auxiliary, and you can toggle each one on and off. There would be a total of +20 power shared between all of the systems you are feeding auxiliary power into. So this means you could have for example +5 to everything, +10 to weapons and shields, or +20 to auxiliary alone, depending on what you need at the moment.

It would give Federation cruisers considerably more meat, and stay within their "Engineering and science is awesome!" philosophy.
This would actually be kind of interesting.
Community Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,294
# 269
12-20-2012, 12:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by momaw View Post
Which is kind of laughable.

I had the inkling of an idea though when you said that about batteries though. There was one episode of TNG where they were in the middle of some kind of power crisis and something was said about already being maxed out on N auxiliary fusion generators where N was somewhere in the neighborhood of 5. What I get from this is that the Galaxy class has a warp core for providing the bulk of its power but has a bunch of secondary generators that can be warmed up if the fuel cost can be justified.

Is it too far fetched to extend this to all Federation cruisers in general, and say that they should get a built in "auxiliary generators" skill that can develop more power as needed? Put it in the same place that the carrier commands would occupy. You get a button for each of weapons, shields, engines and auxiliary, and you can toggle each one on and off. There would be a total of +20 power shared between all of the systems you are feeding auxiliary power into. So this means you could have for example +5 to everything, +10 to weapons and shields, or +20 to auxiliary alone, depending on what you need at the moment.

It would give Federation cruisers considerably more meat, and stay within their "Engineering and science is awesome!" philosophy.
I kind of like it, but I think that +20 to anything as an innate ability of the ship class might be too much. If you max out at +10 in any power levels, that should be okay.
Volunteer Community Moderator for the Star Trek Online forums -- My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. If you wish to speak to someone on the community team, file a "forums and website" support ticket here, as we are not able to respond to PMs regarding moderation inquiries.
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,046
# 270
12-20-2012, 01:28 PM
I don't see why the cruiser class can't have an extra +5 to all and give beams 10% damage boost (considering they lost 20% somewhere, it wouldn't hurt very much in the grand scheme of things, of and make heals percentage based, I stick by that one
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:40 PM.