Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,750
# 281
12-21-2012, 12:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitemepwe View Post
Your statement is laughable.

Give the evidence that shows Star Fleets superiority on all levels.

Give the evidence that Klingon Empire social system is inferior in function the UFP.

Show me and all players this evidence that makes Kirks statement, " Barbarians do not rule star empires." about Klingon Empire untrue.

You are the poster child of the arrogant fed fan. Unwilling to accept that other races in ST have come just as far, if not farther, both as cultures and with technology.


KDF ships are better in STO because they are designed more for combat and STO is a combat focused game.

Crack open a book, in fact open four, broaden your mind to the culture of others past your narrow narcism of the federation.
I think I'll have to call you out on this one.

The Feds didn't blow up their moon and in fact possibly saved the Empire when they blew up theirs.

While it is true that the Empire is judged based on our own earthly and modern sensibilities its a fact that the Empire commits atrocities on a daily basis without giving it a second though. Kidnapping for torture and execution, and slavery are just some of the things we as players get to partake in the game itself.

The Federation could decide to simply send cloaked Genesis torpedoes to some or all of the Empire's planets and put an end to them but chooses to stay its hand and NOT destroy the empire. That shows a certain amount of civility. Does anyone for a moment think the Empire would be as restrained? In the game we once again see this first hand. B'vat gets a Doomsday Device and everyone thinks its a FANTASTIC IDEA to go around wiping out planets. In fact the ONE Klingon to show a bit of restraint and common sense is labelled a traitor and shows what REAL Klingon honor should be about.

Had the Klingons not been uplifted by an alien race would they have even made it off their planet? Would they have survived their atomic age, assuming they even got there before constant warfare would continually force their tech levels to reset?

Kirk's infamous quote about barbarians and star empires is often repeated..... but it doesn't mean he was right. Klingons ARE barbarians for all practical purposes. They expand through conquest, have an honor code more about appearing honorable than actually being honorable, and think of everyone else as either just bellow them or with outright contempt for not being bloodthirsty warriors.

So yeah, their society IS inferior in all ways.

Doesn't mean its not fun to play them though. After all, thanks to game balance they are equally as powerful as the Feds.

Last edited by skyranger1414; 12-21-2012 at 12:10 AM.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,207
# 282
12-21-2012, 02:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitemepwe View Post
Your statement is laughable.

Give the evidence that shows Star Fleets superiority on all levels.

Give the evidence that Klingon Empire social system is inferior in function the UFP.

Show me and all players this evidence that makes Kirks statement, " Barbarians do not rule star empires." about Klingon Empire untrue.

You are the poster child of the arrogant fed fan. Unwilling to accept that other races in ST have come just as far, if not farther, both as cultures and with technology.
What I stated is based on established Star Trek canon only, not STO game details.

Military Dictatorships have inherent problems with information flow because that government system routinely restricts certain subjects to prevent its populace from organizing against the ruling government. This leash prevents the free flow exchange of ideas. Research data is often redacted as state secrets, classified, never published, etc... so scientists and researchers do not get to openly share ideas which lead to breakthroughs in seemingly unrelated topics of study.

After all, when was the last time you heard of any non-nuclear inovations coming out of North Korea?

On the Star Trek canon history:

1) The Brel BoP in ST IV had a more primitive dilithium power system, and Scotty clearly mentions upgrading it to more modern Fed Standards, including replacing the food replicators

2) The Feds created the Genesis Torpedo, the most powerful weapon ever made by either side. However, being a bunch of do-gooders, the UFP never brought this terrible weapon to bear on the KDF's populated worlds nor space fleets. I would not be surprised if Section31 has a few on hand just in case the Federation ever faces defeat.

3) Klingon ships typically maxxed out at Warp 8 in STTNG. The Galaxy Class Enterprise was among the fastest non-transwarp ships at 9.98.

4) The Federation developed the phase cloak in "The Pegasus" S7E12 but could not use it due to the Treaty of Algeron. The Klingons obtained their cloaking technology from their short-lived alliance with the Romulans. Yes, they did make some improvements (e.g., improved battle cloak from ST VI), but without the Romulans, they would have never gotten that far.


These are just some examples off the top of my head.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bitemepwe View Post
Crack open a book, in fact open four, broaden your mind to the culture of others past your narrow narcism of the federation.
There's no need to be snide... this is just a game based on a utopian future that has almost no chance of happening (it takes the whole fuel supply of our Terran Sun to accelerate one atom to actual warp speeds).

Unfortunately we never hear about the KDF's marvelous inovations because they have a feudal military council running their show, and as you've seen in the case of the House of Duras, competing factions within the KDF, hence the need for secrecy and restricted information flow. They also look upon their own scientist with contempt as a lower class (the warrior class gets all the "honors"). The KDF is several thousands of years old, while the UFP is only a few centuries, yet look at how quickly the UFP jumped ahead of the Klingons in the technology race.

EDIT: I forgot to mention that I do play an LG1 KDF Orion Sci... couldn't stay clear of their unique costumes!

Last edited by shar487a; 12-26-2012 at 01:53 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 622
# 283
12-21-2012, 02:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by skyranger1414 View Post
I think I'll have to call you out on this one.

The Feds didn't blow up their moon and in fact possibly saved the Empire when they blew up theirs.

While it is true that the Empire is judged based on our own earthly and modern sensibilities its a fact that the Empire commits atrocities on a daily basis without giving it a second though. Kidnapping for torture and execution, and slavery are just some of the things we as players get to partake in the game itself.

The Federation could decide to simply send cloaked Genesis torpedoes to some or all of the Empire's planets and put an end to them but chooses to stay its hand and NOT destroy the empire. That shows a certain amount of civility. Does anyone for a moment think the Empire would be as restrained? In the game we once again see this first hand. B'vat gets a Doomsday Device and everyone thinks its a FANTASTIC IDEA to go around wiping out planets. In fact the ONE Klingon to show a bit of restraint and common sense is labelled a traitor and shows what REAL Klingon honor should be about.

Had the Klingons not been uplifted by an alien race would they have even made it off their planet? Would they have survived their atomic age, assuming they even got there before constant warfare would continually force their tech levels to reset?

Kirk's infamous quote about barbarians and star empires is often repeated..... but it doesn't mean he was right. Klingons ARE barbarians for all practical purposes. They expand through conquest, have an honor code more about appearing honorable than actually being honorable, and think of everyone else as either just bellow them or with outright contempt for not being bloodthirsty warriors.

So yeah, their society IS inferior in all ways.

Doesn't mean its not fun to play them though. After all, thanks to game balance they are equally as powerful as the Feds.
The Klingons may have blown up 3/4 of a moon due to heavy industry but shall we take a look at the history of the founding member of the Federation? I do believe Q explores this rather well during the Farpoint mission. Perhaps the Eugenics Wars? World War III and the Post-atomic horror? That Earth authentic court Q held didn't appear all that civilized or honorable. Developing illegal cloaking devices which failed killing the crew? Had the Vulcans not been in the vicinity, for business other than the relative Earth primitives mind you, would the warp flight mattered at all as Earth continues to bicker amongst their post-atomic factions?

For all the utopia the Federation clamors to be one need only look as far as an away team. Stagnant thinking causes them all to take cover behind the same object in every firefight causing the entire team to be pinned down. Or look at the reason the ship full of women and children is gallivanting about at all. The society is so stagnant and bored with its own existence that it fills its flagship with civilians and tells it to just go anywhere but here, constantly placing innocent people in harm's way. Not exactly the mark of an enlightened society.
All cloaks should be canon.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,750
# 284
12-21-2012, 03:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bloctoad View Post
The Klingons may have blown up 3/4 of a moon due to heavy industry but shall we take a look at the history of the founding member of the Federation? I do believe Q explores this rather well during the Farpoint mission. Perhaps the Eugenics Wars? World War III and the Post-atomic horror? That Earth authentic court Q held didn't appear all that civilized or honorable. Developing illegal cloaking devices which failed killing the crew? Had the Vulcans not been in the vicinity, for business other than the relative Earth primitives mind you, would the warp flight mattered at all as Earth continues to bicker amongst their post-atomic factions?

For all the utopia the Federation clamors to be one need only look as far as an away team. Stagnant thinking causes them all to take cover behind the same object in every firefight causing the entire team to be pinned down. Or look at the reason the ship full of women and children is gallivanting about at all. The society is so stagnant and bored with its own existence that it fills its flagship with civilians and tells it to just go anywhere but here, constantly placing innocent people in harm's way. Not exactly the mark of an enlightened society.
Its kinda interesting how you bring up some of the best of Rodenberry's Soapbox Shennannigans. But, as much as I love to point out how flawed Rodenberry's hand in TNG was it IS part of cannon. And yet, for all those bad points you bring up the Federation's founding member in question managed to move beyond it in a relatively short amount of time, how long have Klingons been throwing their weight around before the Federation or even Earth showed up in the scene? So long and so little change... talk about stagnant, hundreds of years of bullying others and so little to show for it. Tsk, tsk.

Thankfully Rodenberry left the Star Trek franchise early enough that the later series were not as heavy handed in pushing an impossible society. DS9 even goes so far as to explore the sacrifices needed to keep such an outwardly utopian society alive in an unfriendly and outright hostile galaxy.

Edit: Actually, I notice a lot of passionate players are more or less in denial of what the Klingon Empire really is. Why is that? Its pretty clear from the existing content and the Doff assignments currently available. How can anyone say they really like the KDF without accepting what they are? Its bizarre and reeks of denial. Unnecessary denial at that, the Klingon Empire are mostly a bunch of jerks and thugs masquerading as honorable warriors. There are some exceptions making a superb effort in moving beyond that but they're not there yet. Why is that a bad thing? My KDF alt happily goes around raiding and getting slaves for fun and profit and that's ok because that's what they DO.

Last edited by skyranger1414; 12-21-2012 at 03:48 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 622
# 285
12-21-2012, 04:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by skyranger1414 View Post
Its kinda interesting how you bring up some of the best of Rodenberry's Soapbox Shennannigans. But, as much as I love to point out how flawed Rodenberry's hand in TNG was it IS part of cannon. And yet, for all those bad points you bring up the Federation's founding member in question managed to move beyond it in a relatively short amount of time, how long have Klingons been throwing their weight around before the Federation or even Earth showed up in the scene? So long and so little change... talk about stagnant, hundreds of years of bullying others and so little to show for it. Tsk, tsk.

Thankfully Rodenberry left the Star Trek franchise early enough that the later series were not as heavy handed in pushing an impossible society. DS9 even goes so far as to explore the sacrifices needed to keep such an outwardly utopian society alive in an unfriendly and outright hostile galaxy.

Edit: Actually, I notice a lot of passionate players are more or less in denial of what the Klingon Empire really is. Why is that? Its pretty clear from the existing content and the Doff assignments currently available. How can anyone say they really like the KDF without accepting what they are? Its bizarre and reeks of denial. Unnecessary denial at that, the Klingon Empire are mostly a bunch of jerks and thugs masquerading as honorable warriors. There are some exceptions making a superb effort in moving beyond that but they're not there yet. Why is that a bad thing? My KDF alt happily goes around raiding and getting slaves for fun and profit and that's ok because that's what they DO.
Klingons are who Klingons are. We know what the Empire is as we are the Empire. We are comfortable with who we are making your discomfort inconsequential as you seek for force your beliefs on others. We conquest through might. You conquest through propaganda and subterfuge. This is clearly evident in the recent posts by you and your cohorts.

Now I believe we were discussing the fallacy that Cruisers are underpowered were we not?
All cloaks should be canon.
Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 312
# 286
12-21-2012, 04:13 PM
Because people love their secondhand spaceorcs who are getting their asses kicked by pregnant women And don't start about our wannabe paladins, who send their families into every war and dangerous zones


Both civilizations are impossible. The feds are so stupid good, they just deserve to die :-P
And the klingons are so stupid evil, you have to wonder how did they ever got into space? xD


I would say back to topic ...

I like my Attack Cruiser. I just wish it would turn better. Hopefully we get something like the breen cruiser with the look of an federation ship.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,207
# 287
12-21-2012, 04:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bloctoad View Post
Klingons are who Klingons are. We know what the Empire is as we are the Empire. We are comfortable with who we are making your discomfort inconsequential as you seek for force your beliefs on others. We conquest through might. You conquest through propaganda and subterfuge. This is clearly evident in the recent posts by you and your cohorts.

Now I believe we were discussing the fallacy that Cruisers are underpowered were we not?
You ROLE-PLAY very well

But I agree... let's get back on topic...

PS: If STO ever starts a Dominion faction, I'm switching sides!
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 622
# 288
12-21-2012, 04:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shar487a View Post
You ROLE-PLAY very well

But I agree... let's get back on topic...

PS: If STO ever starts a Dominion faction, I'm switching sides!
It's what I do.
All cloaks should be canon.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,274
# 289
12-23-2012, 04:43 PM
In all fairness if you know how to build cruisers aren't that bad, I think that couple of adjustments to beams are in order to account for the DPS-centric nature of the game but it's not essential, my 6 beam Excelsior does a good 28k per firing cycle which is enough to compete with escorts to a point (basic buffs).
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,351
# 290
12-23-2012, 05:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by luxchristian View Post
I would say back to topic ...

I like my Attack Cruiser. I just wish it would turn better. Hopefully we get something like the breen cruiser with the look of an federation ship.

Try the Excelsior, you'll love the difference in handling.
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