Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 144
# 291
12-24-2012, 03:31 AM
The general problem I'm seeing is that, even if you get an cruiser to the dmg of an escort, why you want to fly an cruiser anyway, if an escort is much easier to build, to fly and less stressing in movement?

Cruisers, science ships and escort should differ in their roles. The way of an escort is defined: pure battle ships diesigned to provide firepower and enough defense to deliver their payload.

Cruisers, as the Enterprise in the canon, can provide firepower, can absorb attacks, but their main role was always multi purpose.

Science ships, as the Voyager, were mainly meant for deep space exploration but providing them enough firepower to defend them self.

In my opinion, escorts, science ships and cruisers should have some additional slots, like weapons slots or consumable slots, where they can equiup science and engeenering facilities.

Of couse, science ships should have more science slot facilities than cruisers, while cruisers might have more engeenering facilities. Escorts may have none or only one slot.

There facilities should have MK ratings like weapons, shield and armor consoles. They would allow to trigger special ways of solving end game content.

E.g. a science ship with a science facillity equipped could supress spawing of repair nanites in STFs for some time. It could be able to undo parts of the tholian web in vault ensared and so on.

Similar, engeenering facilities on a cruiser could e.g. allow to reduce the player respawn timer in end game content, allow to suceed in the optional in protecing the kang even if the ships drops below the hull damage value, etc.

Additional optionals, or even complete missions, which are only solvable when you have science and engeenering facilties equiped could be added to pvp and pve.

It is just a matter of creativity.

Last edited by xiphenon; 12-24-2012 at 03:35 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,274
# 292
12-24-2012, 03:45 AM
Sadly this would only serve to make Escorts all the more powerful in pve *BOOM* "Oh look, I died, I have an engineering facility, I'll get up in a few less seconds than before and tear more stuff to shreds sooner". Don't get me wrong, I like your idea but I think it is one for a later date when things are balanced enough to make this doable without destroying what remains of the balance.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,427
# 293
12-24-2012, 04:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shar487a View Post
The sad part is that the Federation and Starfleet are supposed to be technologically superior to the KDF. Fed warp engines are faster, ship-frames stronger, their weapons hit harder, etc... despite the fact that the bulk of Starfleet ships are not war-ships. The KDF may be thousands of years old, but since they rule by conquest, they do not have the same free-flow of information that a utopian democracy like the Federation enjoys. However, since the STO KDF have very little content compared to the STO Feds, giving them canon-accurate stats would have doomed the STO Faction PVP model, hence they are given better-than-canon stats to compensate.
Wasn't it said somewhere in canon that KDF impulse thruster technology was superior to that of the Feds because Klinkydinks had more direct martial experience or something?

In a very broad sense the UFP is gonna be more technologically advanced, sure, but I don't think it's as cut and dry in every area as you're painting it.

vids and guides and stuff

[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,591
# 294
12-24-2012, 04:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shimmerless View Post
Wasn't it said somewhere in canon that KDF impulse thruster technology was superior to that of the Feds because Klinkydinks had more direct martial experience or something?

In a very broad sense the UFP is gonna be more technologically advanced, sure, but I don't think it's as cut and dry in every area as you're painting it.
It's actually very simple. The UFP is more advanced in warp drive and sensor technology, in addition to scientific labs and most engineering nitty gritty detail oriented things (like EPS conduit systems, and computer technology). Basically everything they'd need to explore and catalog things. They VASTLY out-do the KDF in those areas. They also have superior shield technology in the sense that their shields are designed to deal with more types of threats from the environment (i.e radiation, energy, that kind of thing).

However at sub-light speeds, KDF ships have the advantage. Their ships have more powerful impulse engines and thrusters, designed for maximum output over shorter periods of time. As weapon technology goes, the KDF use more archaic but still very effective weaponry. As hull goes, KDF ships have much better armor technology. This has always been the case. If a KDF battlecruiser rammed a fed cruiser, it's likely the KDF ship would just keep on going more or less intact, while the fed ship would probably be in multiple very large chunks.

The only faction that can match (and in some cases out-strip) the KDF in combat technology is the Dominion, and that's only because Dominion ships were designed exclusively for combat (I think Weiyun (yeah, I probably spelled that wrong) even said that the founders designed their ships to match what was flying them, purely combat ships for purely soldiers). The Breen just have one ship design that was really combat oriented, and that's the Chel'gret, but it's a VERY capable, maneuverable, and nasty ship (not just in STO, but in canon as well).
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Why the Devs can't make PvE content harder. <--- DR proved me wrong!
Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 312
# 295
12-24-2012, 08:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by whamhammer1 View Post
Try the Excelsior, you'll love the difference in handling.
Yeah, I know... But I DISLIKE they ugly and ****y Excelsior design. Even worse than that crap Connie. Yeah Tos era ships are not my favorite designs ;-)
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,351
# 296
12-24-2012, 08:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by luxchristian View Post
Yeah, I know... But I DISLIKE they ugly and ****y Excelsior design. Even worse than that crap Connie. Yeah Tos era ships are not my favorite designs ;-)
It's up to you. You can drive a design that you like the look of and be less effective with your desired play style, or deal with a ship that you don't like the look of and be more effective.

I absolutely hate the look of the Garumba, but for what it can do, you can't beat it.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,766
# 297
12-24-2012, 09:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shimmerless View Post
Wasn't it said somewhere in canon that KDF impulse thruster technology was superior to that of the Feds because Klinkydinks had more direct martial experience or something?

In a very broad sense the UFP is gonna be more technologically advanced, sure, but I don't think it's as cut and dry in every area as you're painting it.
I finally found the dat that talks upon that and will post it later. Basically if one goes back to the beginings of both the Empire and Star Fleet and looks at the technologies the KDF is ahead in Impulse and Shield technology due to the Hurg incident giving them a 100 year jump start in tech before Star Fleet and when the Enterprise first meets the Klingons that is the state of things.

This does not mean that the modern UFP or KDF have the same defining technological parameters in the year 2409 as both societies continued thier technological growth since the early years of thier both being a space faring entities.
Nor does it dictate that one entity is all encopassing in technology over the other.
Richard Hamilton (1975-2014)
goodbye good friend. We will see you in the DMZ in the sky oneday, save a shot for us.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,766
# 298
12-24-2012, 10:54 AM
[quote=shar487a;7182631]What I stated is based on established Star Trek canon only, not STO game details.

Quote:
Military Dictatorships have inherent problems with information flow because that government system routinely restricts certain subjects to prevent its populace from organizing against the ruling government.
The Klingon Empire is not a military dictatorship in the sense that humans have had such in thier society. You assumption is wrong.

The Klingon Empire is a Free-House system tied to a Ruling-house system that is represented by the High Council and which is further controlled by the Chancellor position.

Each Klingon house is capable of thier own commerce, creating an maintaining thier fleets, Gaurds and Ground based Armies, contributing to the KDF fleets and activities and following the rule of the Council and Chancellor.

The Klingon peoples have adopted this rigid, psuedo-socialists system due to the Hurg attacks, the Klingons own more violent and warlike tendecies and the need for expansion into other star systems due to thier own resource weak home system.

Quote:
After all, when was the last time you heard of any non-nuclear inovations coming out of North Korea?
like the Hyundai Motor Company ?




Quote:
1) The Brel BoP in ST IV had a more primitive dilithium power system, and Scotty clearly mentions upgrading it to more modern Fed Standards, including replacing the food replicators
The first BoP was in service in 2153 and the events of ST:3 in 2285 are 132 years later. So chances are that particular BoP was 132 behind the current technology that Scottie had on the Enterprise.
I have a screwdriver that is technologically inferior to my electric version, does that make the hand held obsolete in function?

But I have more on this later........

Quote:
2) The Feds created the Genesis Torpedo, the most powerful weapon ever made by either side. However, being a bunch of do-gooders, the UFP never brought this terrible weapon to bear on the KDF's populated worlds nor space fleets. I would not be surprised if Section32 has a few on hand just in case the Federation ever faces defeat.
Which is why the KDF wished to acquire it.
We KDF invented the ChronoDeflector and yet we do not run around erasing everyone else from time.

Quote:
3) Klingon ships typically maxxed out at Warp 8 in STTNG. The Galaxy Class Enterprise was among the fastest non-transwarp ships at 9.98.
Star Fleet ships where origanilly slower than the KDF counterparts in the ENT era and TOS era.

I have more on this later.......

Quote:
4) The Federation developed the phase cloak in "The Pegasus" S7E12 but could not use it due to the Treaty of Algeron. The Klingons obtained their cloaking technology from their short-lived alliance with the Romulans. Yes, they did make some improvements (e.g., improved battle cloak from ST VI), but without the Romulans, they would have never gotten that far.
And without the stolen cloaking technology from the KDF/Romulans/ whomever, the Federation would have never gotten there jump start into it iether.....
Other than we all owe a claoking debt to the Romulans, what is your point?

I too can pull examples of the greatness of almost any culture if I only wish to bask in thier greatness. It does not prove said greatness though.

Quote:
Crack open a book, in fact open four, broaden your mind to the culture of others past your narrow narcism of the federation.
My angst when I wrote makes it sound snide. I apoligise for that. Though it is sound advice. Many Novels exist that cover the life and the average Klingon in the Empire and you may be surprised how the "warrior" is portrayed as being the end all be all, but it is just one part of a larger culture.

Quote:
Unfortunately we never hear about the KDF's marvelous inovations because they have a feudal military council running their show, and as you've seen in the case of the House of Duras, competing factions within the KDF, hence the need for secrecy and restricted information flow.
yes and No. Secrecy from outsiders and rival houses -yes. Though technology and innovation do move through the Empire as any other society.
The KDF is not a communist society in how we saw such finction on Earth. As with the Utopian idea in ST works, the Socialist aspects of teh KDf work too.
Hell, look at China. Communists and functioning. Just different, not neccassirily better.


Quote:
They also look upon their own scientist with contempt as a lower class (the warrior class gets all the "honors").
Warriors, Engineers, Scientists, Doctors is a good way to look at the hiearchy. Though we have Scientists just fine, otehrwise how would we learn the sciences needed to be a Space-faring race?
Richard Hamilton (1975-2014)
goodbye good friend. We will see you in the DMZ in the sky oneday, save a shot for us.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,766
# 299
12-24-2012, 11:03 AM
[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by skyranger1414 View Post

The Feds didn't blow up their moon and in fact possibly saved the Empire when they blew up theirs.
The KDF didn't almost destroy themselves in Third World War iether. All societies and races live on the razor edge of death. The KDF was no different concerning Praxis.

Quote:
While it is true that the Empire is judged based on our own earthly and modern sensibilities its a fact that the Empire commits atrocities on a daily basis without giving it a second though. Kidnapping for torture and execution, and slavery are just some of the things we as players get to partake in the game itself.
Atrocities to those whom think them atrociuos.
The Klingon is an alien race with an Alien society and all those atrocities where committed on Earth by Humans just as much in thier history.

Quote:
The Federation could decide to simply send cloaked Genesis torpedoes to some or all of the Empire's planets and put an end to them but chooses to stay its hand and NOT destroy the empire. That shows a certain amount of civility. Does anyone for a moment think the Empire would be as restrained? In the game we once again see this first hand. B'vat gets a Doomsday Device and everyone thinks its a FANTASTIC IDEA to go around wiping out planets. In fact the ONE Klingon to show a bit of restraint and common sense is labelled a traitor and shows what REAL Klingon honor should be about.
Thats where Scripting overtakes common sense.

Quote:
Had the Klingons not been uplifted by an alien race would they have even made it off their planet? Would they have survived their atomic age, assuming they even got there before constant warfare would continually force their tech levels to reset?
According to science, had early Man not needed to look over the tall grass would we have ever learned to walk upright?

Quote:
Kirk's infamous quote about barbarians and star empires is often repeated..... but it doesn't mean he was right. Klingons ARE barbarians for all practical purposes. They expand through conquest, have an honor code more about appearing honorable than actually being honorable, and think of everyone else as either just bellow them or with outright contempt for not being bloodthirsty warriors.
more to come on this subject.

Quote:
So yeah, their society IS inferior in all ways.
Only compard to the self-appointed superiority of the society doing the critigueing.

Which is where I find the aformentioned posted statement laughible becuase its funny how the fans see the Humans as the top shelf species and all others not of importance as inferior and accept it so quickly as gospel when its the by-product of scripting and Human Nature only.
Richard Hamilton (1975-2014)
goodbye good friend. We will see you in the DMZ in the sky oneday, save a shot for us.

Last edited by bitemepwe; 12-24-2012 at 11:11 AM.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 144
# 300
12-24-2012, 11:25 AM
Ah, isn't this a thread about cruisers and why they are UP?

Although the discussion about KDF vs. Fed science seem to be intresting, maybe we could stay on topic.
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