Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,831
# 331
12-28-2012, 07:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitemepwe View Post
PvE content in general tends overcome its own intended handicaps as NPCs for the most part are hardly a challenge.
PvP is where DHCs suffer thier narrow firing arc.
Until the game offers more challenge than a DPS race the weapon that does the best damage is always gonna make it look easy.

The answer seems simple. Adjust the drain for beams to a more reasonable rate kept in line with the game but frankly the huge amount of shots fired from beam arrays is why they have such a bad drain.
Yes it is pretty simple. And in a way that is what they are doing with the fifteen new ways of mitigating weapon drain released with season 7 but sadly this ... issue also effects standard dual cannons and regular cannons to a point.

But yeah, if they knocked beam array drain down to 9 tomorrow it would be a great adjustment. Or even if they released a new beam array for cruisers/some sci rear only with 9 drain that would be great. We can even get crazy and give it a built in 5% accuracy and it still wouldn't be OP especially since fire at will ignores your own accuracy rating last I checked.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,657
# 332
12-28-2012, 09:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bareel View Post
And DHCs in PvE content manage to ignore their intended 'weakness'. The firing arc of 45 degrees is not an issue, keeping a DHC on target is not an issue for a decent player........

While it is also true that cannon type weapons suffer a higher penalty at a longer range, their higher base damage combined with their higher efficiency with weapons power still allows them to put out the best sustained 'bombard' damage ........
Its almost like....ships with cannons are "meant" to do more damage than ships with Beam Arrays??!! ZOMG!! Stop the presses!!

Ships with Beam arrays are meant to deal less damage and not be primary damage dealers, this is by design. If you really wish a ship that is a primary damage dealer I suggest you stop raging against the way Fed cruisers were designed (this includes teh way beams work, all part of the design) and understand that Escorts/Raptors and KDF Battlecruisers are meant as primary damage dealers.

Do KDF Battlecruisers come out ahead of Fed Cruisers in practical terms (as oppossed to the spreadsheet balance they are weighted against)? Probably. The flipside is that most people claiming to know both sides agree that Fed Escorts are usually better than KDF Raptors.

Seriously, there's no need for you to point out the WHY and the HOW of things. Cruisers are MEANT to deal less damage while tanking anything and everything the game can throw at it.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,553
# 333
12-28-2012, 11:25 PM
Another alternative:
Romulan Prototype Plasma BA. It uses NO energy when fired with other weapons. Granted you can only have one, but imagine that with 6 other BAs, you only suffer 60 power drain instead of 70. Something I plan on trying btw, the mk XII romulan BAs (6 of them), and the prototype BA. Should be interesting.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Tired of Wasting EC and Time trying to get Superior Romulan Operative BOffs? Here's a cheap and easy way to get them, with an almost 100% chance of success.
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Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,831
# 334
12-29-2012, 01:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by skyranger1414 View Post
Its almost like....ships with cannons are "meant" to do more damage than ships with Beam Arrays??!! ZOMG!! Stop the presses!!

Ships with Beam arrays are meant to deal less damage and not be primary damage dealers, this is by design. If you really wish a ship that is a primary damage dealer I suggest you stop raging against the way Fed cruisers were designed (this includes teh way beams work, all part of the design) and understand that Escorts/Raptors and KDF Battlecruisers are meant as primary damage dealers.

Do KDF Battlecruisers come out ahead of Fed Cruisers in practical terms (as oppossed to the spreadsheet balance they are weighted against)? Probably. The flipside is that most people claiming to know both sides agree that Fed Escorts are usually better than KDF Raptors.

Seriously, there's no need for you to point out the WHY and the HOW of things. Cruisers are MEANT to deal less damage while tanking anything and everything the game can throw at it.

When the only role in the game that exists is DPS then it becomes a problem.

An Escort can TANK anything and everything the game can throw at it 90% of the time. Why should 2/3rds of the ships in the game Fed side be sub-optimal 90% of the time? Why do you consider that a 'good thing'?

When I join an ESTF I literally count the number of DHC packing ships to figure out just how quickly it will get steamrolled. Why spend twelve minutes doing something that can be done in five?

And what on earth makes you thing cruisers are the best tanks? They are not. They are the best 'self tanks' but the moment you bust out the TRUE TRINITY and I'm talking from the perspective of an old EQ vet where it was a warrior tank and cleric healer or go home because your sub-optimal, the escort has the same mitigation ability with a higher avoidance capability making the science vessel healer more efficient.

People keep saying 'cruisers tank' and I say 'tank what and why?' followed with 'its not like a heal works any better on your cruiser than it does my escort, worse actually if your not packing EPTS 3'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hereticknight085 View Post
Another alternative:
Romulan Prototype Plasma BA. It uses NO energy when fired with other weapons. Granted you can only have one, but imagine that with 6 other BAs, you only suffer 60 power drain instead of 70. Something I plan on trying btw, the mk XII romulan BAs (6 of them), and the prototype BA. Should be interesting.
Yes and I do intent on flying a plasma beam boat and it shows Cryptic does not think adding a beam array without any power drain to the game would not be overpowered. Yet instead of fixing the underlying issue now it will just be plasma or go home for me with beams.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,553
# 335
12-29-2012, 01:54 AM
The only catch there being that this will be rather weak in PvP because so many end-game shields are especially resistant to plasma, which is where the balance kicks in.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Tired of Wasting EC and Time trying to get Superior Romulan Operative BOffs? Here's a cheap and easy way to get them, with an almost 100% chance of success.
Why the Devs can't make PvE content harder.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 144
# 336
12-29-2012, 02:25 AM
I think, beams can be boosted in its effect without raising its damage.

Cannons, like disruptors, are always meant to bring pure and raw destruction. Beams are more like chirugical weapons. Very accurate, more designed to attack strategic points on a star ship.

This is currently resembled by the skills like Beam: target engines, or weapons etc. However, these skills are quite ineffective. I don't know if someone bother even to use it. These skills should be much more effective, making beam user more like battlefield controllers than raw damage dealers.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,553
# 337
12-29-2012, 04:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by xiphenon View Post
I think, beams can be boosted in its effect without raising its damage.

Cannons, like disruptors, are always meant to bring pure and raw destruction. Beams are more like chirugical weapons. Very accurate, more designed to attack strategic points on a star ship.

This is currently resembled by the skills like Beam: target engines, or weapons etc. However, these skills are quite ineffective. I don't know if someone bother even to use it. These skills should be much more effective, making beam user more like battlefield controllers than raw damage dealers.
I use subsystem targetting all the time. On my science ship. XP
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Tired of Wasting EC and Time trying to get Superior Romulan Operative BOffs? Here's a cheap and easy way to get them, with an almost 100% chance of success.
Why the Devs can't make PvE content harder.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,696
# 338
12-29-2012, 09:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitemepwe View Post
I did not leave it out becuase it was not relevant to the post. Bareel was showing the discrepancy in drain between the BA and DHCs.

The BA's drain more becuase they fire more shots from more weapons in the time span. Thus the drain is higher by a small margin before the cycle begins again. Had he tested 4 BA's against 4 DHCs, what do you think the drain numbers would look like?

Of course the Dual Heavy cannons do more damage than a single Beam Array. The DHC's are literally two heavy cannons linked into a single weapon while the BA is a single weapon at the lowest definition in its weapon classification.

If it was Dual heavy Beam Arrays tested against the DHC's then it would be a different story, possibly.

Stating that the Beam array does less damage than a DHC is like stating my .22 pistol does less damage than my 30-06 rifle. Its true and the reason why very is evident.
Ok, I admit I failed dismally to make my point and I forget what I was on at the time so I wont bother trying again (especially considering it was an entire page back) so moving forward to the point at hand about power drain...

One of the things people have not mentioned (and I forget where I read/watched/heard it) beam arrays are the most widely used weapons in the trek universe for a reason (ok it was probably because it didn't take much to draw in reality, but) they are supposedly the most efficient weapons ever made, they were also made with varying effective ranges, which are two things they missed out when they made the game. I'd ask for a 5% damage boost on beams with 2 point drain reduction to capture that efficiency.

Talking about DHCs and how they avoid their drawbacks most of the time perhaps give them a 5 point drain to fire 1 DHC (As they are DUAL Heavy Cannons) and have them drain total 15 when fired with other weapons just so that they have a drawback that is unavoidable.

Another idea would be to make escort tanking less effective by making heals percentage based (a concept I have explained previously) making heals equally effective on all ships (with the exception of sci ships due to their high aux power) but at the same time making heals on escorts less effective than they presently are. I think with a little tweaking of the power suggestions I made all of these can be balanced and implemented.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,831
# 339
12-29-2012, 01:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by adamkafei View Post
Ok, I admit I failed dismally to make my point and I forget what I was on at the time so I wont bother trying again (especially considering it was an entire page back) so moving forward to the point at hand about power drain...

One of the things people have not mentioned (and I forget where I read/watched/heard it) beam arrays are the most widely used weapons in the trek universe for a reason (ok it was probably because it didn't take much to draw in reality, but) they are supposedly the most efficient weapons ever made, they were also made with varying effective ranges, which are two things they missed out when they made the game. I'd ask for a 5% damage boost on beams with 2 point drain reduction to capture that efficiency.

Talking about DHCs and how they avoid their drawbacks most of the time perhaps give them a 5 point drain to fire 1 DHC (As they are DUAL Heavy Cannons) and have them drain total 15 when fired with other weapons just so that they have a drawback that is unavoidable.

Another idea would be to make escort tanking less effective by making heals percentage based (a concept I have explained previously) making heals equally effective on all ships (with the exception of sci ships due to their high aux power) but at the same time making heals on escorts less effective than they presently are. I think with a little tweaking of the power suggestions I made all of these can be balanced and implemented.


I agree with heals being % based, or atleast being based on the user's attributes. A Transfer Shield Strength for example should base its flat heal on the caster's max shields and the heal over time aspect on the casters regeneration.

As for the weapons and power drains I really think they should just remove the entire concept or redesign it from scratch to be much less...clunkly. It tends to have unintended ripple effects that cannot really be repaired within the current design. But no matter what beams should either a) only drain 8-9 per and/or b) have built in accuracy bonus. On that end though I kind of always wished that cannons even if it required their damage to be lowered had a built in penetration ability. By that they would say ignore a percentage of the enemies resistances in the damage roll.

That would make beams the accurate weapon, and cannons the piercing weapons.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,696
# 340
12-29-2012, 02:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bareel View Post
I agree with heals being % based, or atleast being based on the user's attributes. A Transfer Shield Strength for example should base its flat heal on the caster's max shields and the heal over time aspect on the casters regeneration.
Well that was thinking of something like that, the example I used was Aux2SIF looking something like:
Max hull=W
X% of W=Y
Insert Aux power mech here to reach Z
Heal Z every second for 10 seconds

I know its very basic suedo coding but it makes the point and you can aplyy that exact formula to most of the games heals (Leaving out the Aux mech here appropriate), the thing is escorts would have to lose some of their shields and cruisers would need a hull boost to make it work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bareel View Post
As for the weapons and power drains I really think they should just remove the entire concept or redesign it from scratch to be much less...clunkly. It tends to have unintended ripple effects that cannot really be repaired within the current design. But no matter what beams should either a) only drain 8-9 per and/or b) have built in accuracy bonus. On that end though I kind of always wished that cannons even if it required their damage to be lowered had a built in penetration ability. By that they would say ignore a percentage of the enemies resistances in the damage roll.
I agree the power system (like the crew system) needs looking at and possibly rebuilding and on your point about cannons ignoring a percentage of resists i think rather than that have a built in 5% bleedthrough to shields meaning a resiliant shield attacked by cannons (of any type) would let 10% through

Quote:
Originally Posted by bareel View Post
That would make beams the accurate weapon, and cannons the piercing weapons.
It would be nice but I would much prefer to see acc mods accounted for in FAW
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