Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 622
# 361
01-01-2013, 09:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by adamkafei View Post
And I've seen escorts tank multiple cruisers AND destroy them, if it's balanced for an escort to do that to cruisers then it's balanced for a cruiser to do the same to escorts.
Eye witness accounts are the least effective and most scrutinized forms of defense/prosecution.

Do you have screenshots of this?
When did you happen upon this battle?
Did you check the system for cloaked ships or recently disengaged vessels?
What skill specs were each Captain using?
What specific ships were used?
What were the loadouts of the ships involved?
What length of time was required for this battle?
What was the overall experience of all players involved relating to piloting those specific vessels and battling the specific vessels in question?
All cloaks should be canon.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,232
# 362
01-01-2013, 10:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bloctoad View Post
Do you have screenshots of this?
No, I didn't think to take any

Quote:
Originally Posted by bloctoad View Post
When did you happen upon this battle?
Shortly after Season 7 went live

Quote:
Originally Posted by bloctoad View Post
Did you check the system for cloaked ships or recently disengaged vessels?
There weren't any, it was a 2 vs 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by bloctoad View Post
What skill specs were each Captain using?
I'd love to know but I don't

Quote:
Originally Posted by bloctoad View Post
What specific ships were used?
Jem'hadar attack ship, Excelsior Retrofit and an Odyssey

Quote:
Originally Posted by bloctoad View Post
What were the loadouts of the ships involved?
Escort was using 4 Polaron DHCs and 3 Polaron Turrets (I think using Jem'hadar set although it could have been MACO and/or Borg)

Excelsior was using 6 Tetryon beams Mk XI/XII all with Acc x1 and 2 Mk XII borg torps (Using full Mk XII MACO set)

Odyssey was using 8 beam arrays of unknown quality running the borg set

Quote:
Originally Posted by bloctoad View Post
What length of time was required for this battle?
Less than 5 minutes

Quote:
Originally Posted by bloctoad View Post
What was the overall experience of all players involved relating to piloting those specific vessels and battling the specific vessels in question?
I'd say the Jemmy pilot was expert, the Excelsior captain (myself) I would say above average and the Odyssey pilot is competent (I have pvped him previously and he can handle himself)

I run 99% uptime on EPtW and EPtS and once the escort had his up he was untouchable with both cruisers on him ontop of this my Excelsior has 14k per facing shield and high uptime on tactical team yet he managed to force me to use RSP and within a few seconds of that going down I was dead, the Oddy didn't last much longer

Last edited by adamkafei; 01-01-2013 at 12:02 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,243
# 363
01-01-2013, 10:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by woodwhity View Post
Basically you want a -now comes a german expression- "eierlegende Wollmilchsau", which is basically a combination of hen, cow,pig and sheep, giving milk and wool, laying eggs, as well as giving huge amounts of meet.

Here you just want a imba ship, capable of tanking as hell and firing like theres no tomorrow. Thats just imbalanced. A cruiser can tank two escorts, a escorts cant do that. With your suggestion a tank could not only tank two escorts, but also destroy them. That is ridiculous! Cruiser are not meant to be the damage dealers. But with the right build you can. Not as much as escorts, but than again, you have a way better defence.
I do have several "eierlegende Wollmilchsau" already.

First up is my Steamrunner, this thing tanks like a beast and puts out more DPS than any cruiser is capable of thanks to her always on EPTS 1, combined with a RSP for when things get hectic plus a hazard emitter for kicks and while normally I would pack an Aux2Strut there be no point so its DEM1 instead.

Following quickly behind is my Defiant which while it is the least tanky of my escorts by virtue of her tac captain and silly STF design puts out stupid high amounts of damage while still be able to tank a tac cube for between one and two minutes. Did I mention it packs APB3 and nearly doubles my entire teams damage output too? Yeah it does. Can't wait till I get the fleet version.

In closing we have the wonderful Fleet Patrol Escort (currently retired for steamrunner) and while common sense would say it is tanky by virtue of her always on EPTS1 that would be a lie. For you see it has an engineer captain and uses beams because I like variety so it has to have a pair of EPTW1s and an Aux2Strut. Thanks in part to the engineer captain, but moreso to her stupid silly defense rating (aegis engines FTW!) a huge number of attacks miss reducing the need to carry a ton of healing. Sadly though her DPS was at 'cruiser level' and had to be retired because even with 150+ weapon power, 4 tac consoles, and a good ole Nadion Inversion every 3 minutes she had a hard time breaking the 6k dps barrier in ESTFs which was unacceptable.

That doesn't even count my MVAE that CCed and energy drained like a boss while pumping out standard DHC punishment, the Fleet VorCha that is an escort in reality with 8 weapon slots, nor my shiney timeship that hasn't been flown for awhile.

Now would they perform well in PvP? Doubtful although I have 1v1ed with the FPE and did fine and have considered grabbing subnuke doffs for her just for the lols. But in PvE? I could 2 man an ESTF and get optional.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bloctoad View Post
snip...
Pretty sure your average escort sustain when built that way, like an STF build for example, does exceed the average cruiser pair DPS potential. Possibly a pair of tac focused cruisers could break its tank but doubtful a single one could.

But that is meaningless as PvP is decided by teams not individuals which is why hyper-specialization is much more important when partaking in it whereas PvE, at least when PuGing, requires a player to be a bit more well rounded as they may not have a healer next to them. Or anyone in the team dealing over 1k DPS either. Therefor the ship that can keep itself alive while putting out the maximum amount of damage is ideal.

This is the PvE 'age of escort' no matter how many try to say it is not. Granted the new gear may change that atleast if you like using plasma beam arrays time will tell.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,375
# 364
01-01-2013, 11:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by adamkafei View Post
And I've seen escorts tank multiple cruisers AND destroy them, if it's balanced for an escort to do that to cruisers then it's balanced for a cruiser to do the same to escorts.
That is possible. Did it myself in an escort. Its quite easy when the enemy only uses RSF with its 2min CD as the only defensive measure. No TT, no EptS, nothing.Off course you can slice the cruiser in two with such an useless setup. Its a player error, because cruisers can tank like they were solid neutronium - with the proper setup.

Unfortunately, there are enough pilots out there who are unable to take a single nanite sphere on. And thats not because they have the wrong ship
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 622
# 365
01-01-2013, 11:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by adamkafei View Post

*snip*

I'd say the Jemmy pilot was expert, the Excelsior captain (myself) I would say above average and the Odyssey pilot is competent (I have pvped him previously and he can handle himself)

I run 99% uptime on EPtW and EPtS and once the escort had his up he was untouchable with both cruisers on him ontop of this my Excelsior has 14k per facing shield and 50% and high uptime on tactical team yet he managed to force me to use RSP and within a few seconds of that going down I was dead, the Oddy didn't last much longer
Barring uncontrollable external influences such as technical problems or a severe mismatch in terms of equipment or bodies/ships, the most experienced player is generally victorious. Whether the previous conditions are present or the battle roughly equal, most engagements are decided by a fatal mistake at an inopportune time by either party. More experienced players make less of those mistakes.

Did you make a fatal mistake? Possibly. Were you simply outclassed? Probably. Not all engagements can be won but every engagement can be lost.
All cloaks should be canon.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,351
# 366
01-01-2013, 11:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitemepwe View Post
So you want near DHC damage AND wide firing arcs of beams? Yeah thats balanced.

The harder the punch the narrower the FA.
Those DHCs still have be aimed. Its one of the prices for using them.

A 60' FA is blessing compared to 45, even on cruiser.
How about make DBB 135' and HBA 90'? Most cruisers cant maintain full frontal arc with a faster target. I can with my Excel', but I have ben know to run four rcs mkxii and have a turn rate of 24.4 when I go dbb.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 622
# 367
01-01-2013, 11:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by whamhammer1 View Post
How about make DBB 135' and HBA 90'? Most cruisers cant maintain full frontal arc with a faster target. I can with my Excel', but I have ben know to run four rcs mkxii and have a turn rate of 24.4 when I go dbb.
Most cruisers weren't designed to maintain full frontal arc on ANY target.
All cloaks should be canon.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,351
# 368
01-01-2013, 11:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bloctoad View Post
Most cruisers weren't designed to maintain full frontal arc on ANY target.
I agree, but introducing a weapon for cruiser with a 60' arc makes even less sense, its not like cruisers have port/starboard mounted weapons in STO. A 60' arc would be pretty much worthless for cruisers. 90' is tenable for some cruisers, but still tough for others (unless you sit at 10km).
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,232
# 369
01-01-2013, 12:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bloctoad View Post
Did you make a fatal mistake? Possibly. Were you simply outclassed? Probably. Not all engagements can be won but every engagement can be lost.
Well I admit that my ship is built for ESTFs (Build here) but with the EPtS&W, Aux2SIF and TT on the spacebar with the weapons I can even drag a CMDR Excelsior through an ESTF successfully, chances are I was simply outclassed by a pvp build I even managed to stop him moving at 1 point and get a broadside on him at full power and even that barely scratched his shields.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,375
# 370
01-01-2013, 12:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by adamkafei View Post
Well I admit that my ship is built for ESTFs (Build here) but with the EPtS&W, Aux2SIF and TT on the spacebar with the weapons I can even drag a CMDR Excelsior through an ESTF successfully, chances are I was simply outclassed by a pvp build I even managed to stop him moving at 1 point and get a broadside on him at full power and even that barely scratched his shields.
only one TT and that on spacebar with two other healing skills? I see the window of opportunity for an veteran escort player.

Last edited by woodwhity; 01-01-2013 at 12:38 PM.
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