Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,489
# 421
01-04-2013, 09:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hereticknight085 View Post
Right so the extra science utility common on fed ships and that extra area for a battery don't matter. And the extra HE or TSS don't matter, as well as the stronger shields that can survive and extra hit or the stronger hull that can survive one more shot don't matter.
Stronger shields? KDF cruisers have the same shields as Federation cruisers, at 1.0 or 1.1 for fleet versions. Some of them have a slightly weaker hull, but since durability is about diminishing and healing damage rather than absorbing it.... no this doesn't matter. If your hull is 1/20th stronger, then that means you're going to survive 1 in 20 more shots AFTER shield resistance, shield balancing, shield heals, and hull heals have all failed.

KDF battlecruisers have zero problems staying alive. Any hypothetical advantage the Feds have in absorbing damage is more than countered by the fact that battlecruisers kill things faster and are significantly more agile, thus ending or escaping fights more easily.

Quote:
I like what you have to say most of the time momaw, but if you insist upon posting up things that don't make sense I will be forced to reconsider that view.
Personally I would hope that everything I write is evaluated based on its individual merits, rather than being colored by judgements about the worth or accuracy of my entire being...

Quote:
So... you basically just said what I said. If you re-read my post, you will see that I am actually a fan of pushing ships further towards... how did you put it? "their individual strengths". So make cruisers tankier with lower damage, make escorts faster, more damage, but far less survivability/durability, and make science ships depend even more in their abilities
No, that's the exact opposite of what I said. What ^that would do is force class-based gameplay. If cruisers can't do any worthwhile damage, and if escorts die in a stiff breeze, then you just killed the entire concept of solo play and random teams because your game will require the "correct" mix of ship types to get anywhere.

Versus my viewpoint, which is that a cruiser should be able to kill enemies just as effectively as an escort, but using a somewhat different style of play focused around sustained brawling and power management instead of the escort's slashing attacks and buff stacking.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,753
# 422
01-05-2013, 02:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bareel View Post

I have a very simple stance. Different but Equal. No one ship type should be extremely better at any role than another. If the goal is to kill a target six beams should be as effective as three DHCs and 3 turrets....

I think what you really want is a cruiser with an escort's boff layout and console slots. Maybe a cruiser costume for one of the tankier escorts would work for you?

I say this because you keep trying to find different angles from which to try to make a case that doesn't exist. It may surprise you that beams doing less DPS than DHCs is not a big secret or some new revelation. Of COURSE they do less damage, they have huge firing arcs and long range (less dps dropoff at range). They are lower dps weapons for lower dps ships. You also conveniently forget to mention the 180 Torp shot that goes along with those six beams as well as the seventh beam for no energy charge, courtesy of our pointy eared BFFs over at Tau Dewa.

As far as the trinity in STO goes. I agree that its terribly misplaced for the IP. Thankfully we have a very soft trinity where no one class/ship combination is required. At least not out of Hive and No Win, or so I have heard. Unfortunately, changing the game in a way that would make all ships equal at all things just isn't in the cards for STO. Frankly, even if they wanted to I'd prefer they didn't touch code any more than they had to. Therefore, players need to understand what the different ships lean towards and decide if they want to use that strength or not.

Last edited by skyranger1414; 01-05-2013 at 02:57 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,489
# 423
01-05-2013, 03:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by skyranger1414 View Post
lower dps weapons for lower dps ships

As far as the trinity in STO goes. I agree that its terribly misplaced for the IP.

I am confused. How are you against crippling over-specialization which forces teamwork, aka "the trinity", while also believing in the very concept of a "low DPS ship"? These two beliefs seem to be contradictory to me.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,813
# 424
01-05-2013, 04:15 AM
I'm with Bareel and Monaw on this one as well as bein with DDIS regarding the solution, as for KDF battle cruisers being at a defensive disadvantage they aren't at all, if anything fed cruisers are because KDF cruisers have the firepower to destroy stuff in a reasonable amount of time without an escort to do it for them.

I have said before, you can tank all day long but that is pointless if it means the attacker never dies, that's called damage sponging (see USS Houston), a tank can actually kill stuff by itself (See KDF Battlecruisers), I'm fine with escorts having survivability and damage provided that doesn't lead to double standards as it seems to, someone comes on the forums saying "I wanna make my escort survive tac cubes and kill them" and everyone looks up and says "Oh yeah you can do that see <Insert place here> and enjoy", yet the moment someone looks up and says "I wanna make my cruiser do what his escort is" everyone looks up and says "No, you're not allowed to do that, damage is his job not yours, how dare you even suggest a fed cruiser killing stuff, learn to play!". That's just unfair.

Science ships don't lose out like cruisers do due to beam array weakness as they have sciencey stuff to back them up and drive good damage out of them, they also only run 4 BAs if they are sensible reducing drain and further increasing damage, for example I have a fleet Excelsior and a fleet Nova on my engineer, I know cruiser pilots who dream of doing what my Excelsior does, I have balanced my boff skills giving me 6 damage boosting skills, 6 heal/resist skills and if I sacrifice one self heal I can have 3/4 team heals and it does well for a fed cruiser built to it's two strengths with a little added on the side. my fleet Nova playing to a different tactic has 3 damage boosting skills, 6 heal/resistance skills, 2 holds and 1 drain, the point being to lay down damage through multiple methods which it does well and take a beating while it does so which scarily it does almost as well as (sometimes even better than) my Excelsior, all in all it does nearly as much damage as the Excel, takes nearly as much damage as the Excel AND all the while is more annoying to the enemy than the Excel.

TLDR (above paragraph only): A fleet science ship can give a fleet Excelsior a run for its money.

so if a properly built science ship can compete with a properly built cruiser, albeit by different methods and requiring more thought, and the escort can survive as long as a cruiser against the same enemy and dish out the damage to kill the thing, why shouldn't the cruiser (and science ship) compete with the escort on a damage front?
Tacofangs is (genuinely) the best dev ever and the forumites adore him
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,845
# 425
01-05-2013, 05:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by adamkafei View Post
We all know that escorts (if built right) can compete with cruisers in terms of defence, I'm thinking of this sort of thing for cruisers and damage, if you build right for it you can get damage that competes with escorts in a similar way to how escorts compete with cruisers as tanks if you get what I'm getting at, it is kinda hard to explain
Still, you did not answer the question.

What parameters would you use to define Beam Arrays being "competitive" with DHC's in Damage, Drain, Firing Arcs, etc.

At what point and with what stats would you and others be happy with Beam Arrays?
Leonard Nimoy, Spock.....

R.I.P
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,845
# 426
01-05-2013, 05:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by momaw View Post
Versus my viewpoint, which is that a cruiser should be able to kill enemies just as effectively as an escort, but using a somewhat different style of play focused around sustained brawling and power management instead of the escort's slashing attacks and buff stacking.
Which is what we have going on in the game right now. Many Cruiser players are using OverCapping, DEM DOffs, AtB builds and other ideas to both increase thier damage output and manage thier power levels.
Why is these ideas and others not the accepted norms for Cruiser play? A basics of Cruiser play if you will.
Escorts have a basics that most players need to know before they become effective. I could name several players that once where beginers and now are more thans most likely to learning the basics of thier class and ship.

As you said the Escorts are merely fast little buff stackers, easily nullified with the right abilities.
Leonard Nimoy, Spock.....

R.I.P
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 801
# 427
01-05-2013, 07:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hereticknight085 View Post
Right so the extra science utility common on fed ships and that extra area for a battery don't matter. And the extra HE or TSS don't matter, as well as the stronger shields that can survive and extra hit or the stronger hull that can survive one more shot don't matter.

I like what you have to say most of the time momaw, but if you insist upon posting up things that don't make sense I will be forced to reconsider that view.

Galaxy R and neghvar: same boffs and consoles yet the neghvar is infinitely better for EVERYTHING from tanking to dealing damage.

Vorcha and assautl cruiser: same boffs and console, yet the vorcha is the better ship all around.

The Fleet klinker cruisers turn the heat up to eleven, the fed fleet cruisers... have no point at all.

Oh and look, the klinkers get a cloack becuase that is what they pay for with their miniscule hit to shield stats and hull. (and btw: the difference in hull and shieklds is SO miniscule it does not evn register in a game where survivasl comes at the hand of magic boff powers and not at the hand of base hull/shield stats.)

Since you seem to ignore this on a regular basis: moblility is the first line of defense and fed cruisers get shafted with no compensation. Being able to build a zombie starship is of no use to anyone.


Quote:
Originally Posted by hereticknight085 View Post
So... you basically just said what I said. If you re-read my post, you will see that I am actually a fan of pushing ships further towards... how did you put it? "their individual strengths". So make cruisers tankier with lower damage, make escorts faster, more damage, but far less survivability/durability, and make science ships depend even more in their abilities, like the three should have been in the first place.
hey, newsflash:

Science ships already rely fully on their abilities to disrupt and control. That is their whole reason for doing anything - to spam disables, scrambles and drain power so that their heavy hits get into the targets (trics for the win?) or in organzied teams leave their target helpless and victim to an escort bum rush.

Escorts already dish out excessive amounts of damage, and combine it with ludicrously high mobility (so high in fact that they can turn circles inside a crusiers shield bubble if they want to and the pilot is immune to vertigo.) and a ridiculously powerful tac buff line that increases survivability more than most engineering powers. Pattern omega and tac team: immunity to snars, roots, massive reistance boosts and naturally an abundance of tac teams - the single one most retarded addition to the gameplay ever made aside the ages old 30 second "you do nothing" VM: instead of fixing the abyssmal standard shield redistribution system by making it NOT SUCK HORRIBLY they made tac team auto reditribute at an insane rate so that it became mandatroy for the very survival in this game.


And cruisers... do nothing. everyone can use tss, Extends are getting broken so easily by interrupts its not even funny + they limit the mobility of their target with a stupidly low max range.
Now the things that remain are engineering teams which will mostly be in global because the cruiser needs to use tac teams to NOT GET MAULED by insane escort dps and aux to sif, which is naturally a single heal dependant on the least useful power stat for a cruiser: aux.
a heal with a low magnitude and a resistance boost that is negated by everyone running beta, delta, mark target or sensor scan.


array dps is forgetable unless buffed to the max by tac capatins - unlike for example dual cannons which even engineering captains can get mileage out off.


What you seem to not know, or have forgotten or have simply learned to ignore is the history of buffs/nerfs that led us to where we are now.



First, there was...

- Dual heavy cannon armed ships ripped all others ships apart in mere seconds. RSP was the only defense (lasted 15 secs back then). Beam arrays still had bite but not in the extreme cannons had. not even close.
Fed v klink balance: Feds sat in a ball, klinks tried to jump straglgers. Klinks won by sheer firepower, feds won by meeting dumb klinkers from time to time. The kind of dumb that flys his bop into 5+ feds and expects to live.

Funny thing aside: devs and some deranged palyers actually tried to argue against auto fire, bumbling on about skill and how mashing the same button is such a joy. Devs caved in half way: weapons autofire, shield dsitribution does not. A cryptic decision for sure.

Then there came:

- Science team: science team suddenly got ultra important because it gave shield resistance.
Combined with RSF it made engin cruisers almost durable. But alas their damage sucked balls now that arrays got their 20% damage nerf - for no other reason but afore mentioned bop users whining like hell.
Bug with the cannons rotatinos got fixes: now you could fire all cannons instead of having to stagger it, escort damage expldoed and to this day shows no signs of coming down again. I think it left orbit years ago in search for a less stupid dev team.
Most Science powers were broken still - aside of VM which would kill you by putting your ship out of business forever.
Fed vs klink balance. The sam, but with klinkers in plain better ships.

funny thing aside:
Fed cruiser turn rate Detate! Now with inertia fixed, the powerslide was gone and so was the fed crusiers only fun way of fighting - by sliding through space - going one way and pointing the other. Fed mobility still sucks to this day and is the single greatest hindrance to fed cruisers - not being able to turn around and present am unscathed shield or bring guns to bear.

Then there came:

- le grande overhaul(e?)
Shield resitances! woot! Healing revamp! woot! Global cooldowns! longer cooldowns! shorter cooldowns!
Shield resitance stacking up to perfect shields that took bascially no credible amount of damage anymore! Subnuke now was mandatory! Dual cannons got more damage potential in retaliation - which did absolutely jack shiite to solve the issue but creates troubles for us now!
Arrays still sucked ass but at least you could hide behind perfect shields and simply WAIT our opponent to death - people that fall asleep at the helm get mauled by cruisers!
Fd vs klink: Klingon population gets poluted by newbs that refuse to learn, ship wise klinks still pwn but conastantly whine on about lack of science ships and escorts that do not have an inbuild firing arc bug.


funny thing aisde:
Spiral dancing is born by fed cruisers circling upwards like some sort of fart in order to exploit ****ty cannon arcs.

- oh snap! giving crusiers perfect shields was a moronic move! TO THE NERF MOBILE!!! capped resistance is a thing now and in fact escorts dish oput sop much damage that even max cap resistance cannot sto pshields from melting in seconds - tac team becomesa must by shield distribution never gettign adjusted to the new realites, skill tree revamp nerfs tanking powers and buffs attack powers, arrays still suck, dual cannons do wtf damage and the defence stat now actually does something by making escorts hard to hit while maintaining the idea that apo should buff EVRYTHING and give immunity to movement impeeding abilitys (the only thing that removes defence). combined with the fact that escorts can now get enough shield hardening to make arrays fire a warm sizzling thing that only gets threatenign when a whole team does it after subnuking your shin ship.
Fed vs klink balance: klink ships still are better, but the playerbase has normalized - lots dumb klinkers now. Oh and klinkers still do not have the allure that the iconic feds have, who would have thought.

Funny thing aside: people ar baffled why they would make a dreadnought that fields dual heavys but has basdically the turn rate of a dead elephant frozen in carbonite and why a weapon that was shown to perform several strikes in seconds is now a 3 minute cooldown weapon with forgettable damage (unless you are tac and get a crit) and the ability to miss tractored carriers at pointblank with regularity o na ship that has no boff or consoel layout to reflect the whole "warship" thing. klinks get an escort with powerful tanking and a lance that can be buffed even more (beta, apo etc) and actually can hit stuff. woot!

After that we have the console wars, the lock box wars etc but the fundamental balance remains the same: escorts ho, science yo, cruisers no.


Funny thing aside encore: science powere got incredilby irritating be destroying your ability to do anything.





- i do not gurantee accuracy in where chronological order is involved.



this was claydermunch, here sicne launch, captain of everything and current user of a GX dread with his Tac captain Syria, because some times, one does meet someone off guard.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 622
# 428
01-05-2013, 09:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by reynoldsxd View Post

Oh and look, the klinkers get a cloack becuase that is what they pay for with their miniscule hit to shield stats and hull.
Actually, Klingons have the cloak because the cloak is Star Trek canon. Just be happy the cloak does not function canonically. What you seem to not know, have forgotten, or have simply learned to ignore is the history of the IP itself.
All cloaks should be canon.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,813
# 429
01-05-2013, 09:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitemepwe View Post
Still, you did not answer the question.

What parameters would you use to define Beam Arrays being "competitive" with DHC's in Damage, Drain, Firing Arcs, etc.
I would be happy with the following stats (Based on Mk XII common):
Fires 4 shots per cycle (Return power after last shot, as per DHCs)
Damage: 249.1, 199.22 DPS (13% increase)
Range 10km
1 second recharge
Drains 8 power when fired with other weapons
250 Degree FA

Compared to the equivalent DHC:
Fires 2 shots per cycle (As current, Return power after last shot, as current)
Damage: 383.5, 255.7 DPS
Range: 10km
2 Second recharge
Drains 12 power when fired with other weapons
+10% Critical severity

Which would lead to the following:
6 beam broadside cycle (24 shots): 5977.248 (Subract reduction from power drain, something I can't calculate)
4 DHC Cycle (16 Shots): 6136 (Subract reduction from power drain)

Meaning DHCs still have the upper hand but not by as much until buffed and as we all know CRF is amazingly powerful compared to things like FAW and BO however it does make beams a better weapon than they are now. I would also like to see FAW take weapon Acc into account and maybe even see a CRF equivalent for Beams. This would put cruisers in a better position to keep damage levels high when escorts are unable to burst on a target without making them a primary DD machine.

I do have a spreadsheet if anyone wants it showing all the formulae I used to to get the results I did.
Tacofangs is (genuinely) the best dev ever and the forumites adore him
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,753
# 430
01-05-2013, 10:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by momaw View Post
I am confused. How are you against crippling over-specialization which forces teamwork, aka "the trinity", while also believing in the very concept of a "low DPS ship"? These two beliefs seem to be contradictory to me.
Easy, while I find the trinity concept ill fitting to STO what we actually have is an incredibly soft trinity that has "low dps ships" that aren;t as low dps as the more traditional tanks usually are in other games.

While there are outliers of course (galaxy is too Engi focused), no ship is forced to perform any role or is required to get through any content (with the exception of No Win and Hive, which again is what I keep hearing). What we have are ships that lean towards DPS, tanking/healing, and CC that then get an overlay of abilities with boff powers. An escort's frail nature make it a requirement by its pilots to learn how get the most out of a limited amount of defensive boff powers. Cruisers work the same way, a cruiser pilot has to learn to make the most out of a limited number of dps tac and power management boff abilities.

As things stand today a cruiser broadside should be six regular beams, the romulan beam, and the 180 torp while having near 100%uptime on EPtW and cycling Aux2B x 2. Heck, with technician doffs my regent has the equivalent of 8 tac boff powers, more than your average escort!
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