Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,158
# 451
01-06-2013, 06:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hereticknight085 View Post
The cruisers that I see the most praise for are those that spec into threat control, and then keep the NPCs full attention so that the escorts can come in and kill off the boss with no danger of being attacked.
Something my Excelsior can do BECAUSE I can push the barriers of beam damage

Quote:
Originally Posted by hereticknight085 View Post
Now if we absolutely MUST buff BAs, then I would say give them back the 20% damage they lost due to the disco ball nerf (the only thing that reynold idiot suggested that makes sense), and give them a very VERY slight acc increase (no more than 5%). But if you do that, don't do anything else. Maybe give cruisers a little more hull, so that you don't have the stupidity of an escort having 50k hull with the strongest hulled cruiser only having 13k more.
Actually given the sheer amount of damage the escort health is kinda needed to survive at all, that said, a buff to beams (I can get behind a reversal of the nerf and stick with that) and a percentage based heal system should fix that giving cruisers and science ships a noticeable healing bonus over escorts

Quote:
Originally Posted by hereticknight085 View Post
Or... reduce escort hull and shields. Make them less able to tank, and more dependent on healing/actual tanks.
Fixed by my Percentage based heal system idea
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,197
# 452
01-06-2013, 06:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hereticknight085 View Post
I agree the gap needs to be smaller. But what you're suggesting is too much. The one thing you always seem to ignore, and it's starting to become a little annoying, is the firing arc issue. Beam arrays have a 250 degree firing arc. That's why your idea is too powerful. Something with that level of a firing arc doing the level of damage you're suggesting? I cannot in good conscience stand behind it. The cruiser captain in me is practically drooling in agreement, but the rest of me, not really.

Now if we absolutely MUST buff BAs, then I would say give them back the 20% damage they lost due to the disco ball nerf (the only thing that reynold idiot suggested that makes sense), and give them a very VERY slight acc increase (no more than 5%). But if you do that, don't do anything else. Maybe give cruisers a little more hull, so that you don't have the stupidity of an escort having 50k hull with the strongest hulled cruiser only having 13k more.

Or... reduce escort hull and shields. Make them less able to tank, and more dependent on healing/actual tanks.

In all honesty, this whole game-wide obsession with DPS (outside of PvP), is just silly.
....

Quote:
Originally Posted by bareel View Post
1) Keep a 45 degree arc on a target with 20 turn rate is no more difficult than an 80 degree arc on a target with 10 turn rate.

snip

So lets take this for the proposed weapon, the Heavy Beam Array
Firing Arc: 240 degree, Forward Mount Only
Base Damage: 110 (for reference standard BAs are 100)
Firing Cycle: Exactly as DHCs (this is the important part)
Energy Drain: 8 or 9 (If 9 then tac on a 5% accuracy bonus to weapon type)

That is not broken by any stretch of the imagination, yet would be a huge boon.
I proposed a 10% damage increase with a 10 degree arc reduction with a modified firing rate and slightly lower drain and/or a 5% ACC bonus that would be foward mount only.

You say that is insanely overpowered yet propose a flat 20% damage increase and 5% Acc boost to all beams.




Oh and just for clarity the only time I get excited by a cruiser being in the ESTF is when they slap extend shields on me with the occasional hazard emitters. Although the only time I get excited by an escort is when they are out DPSing me. I just tend not to be very excitable though.

Last edited by bareel; 01-06-2013 at 06:21 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 658
# 453
01-06-2013, 08:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hereticknight085 View Post
snip

In all honesty, this whole game-wide obsession with DPS (outside of PvP), is just silly.

+1 to all the above.

First of all I'm not a top percentile player. Trying to PvP with 450ms ping is a joke but I've done it before with all ship types and I enjoy it regardless.

My main role in fleet and PUG ESTFs are similar - get a cruiser, keep people alive. Very few people seem to do the PUG tank/heal role so that's what I specialize in.

It indeed used to be that cruisers lack firepower to be competitive with escorts but with the new ship types coming out the gap is being bridged. Battlecruisers (or any tac-heavy cruiser), can with the right build, dish out major damage while being competently tanky.

Buffed with tac abilities and boosts to weapons power a 7 or 8 beam broadside can knock out multiple groups of incoming minor Borg targets and with proper spec to defences, move and shoot to manage the flow of battle. Boss target? Not a problem, there's something called Dispersal Pattern III, TCMs, and a variety of seriously OP debuffs to make the boss target a joke. Did you know you can even attack Donatra while she's cloaked?

Even the free Assault Cruiser can do the above role competently with the right build.
With the Regent (which I find stupidly powerful), a creative pilot is not, repeat not a liability for the team because it is capable of doing damage (massive damage in PvE), tanking and team healing all at once.

Perhaps not as well as a specialized damage dealer and not as well as a specialized tanker or healer, but competently well enough that the Regent remains my top choice for any serious team activity. It is a well rounded, combat capable tac-heavy cruiser.

And if I see a new enemy group incoming I can engage them at range 9.9 and blow them out of the water without needing to maneuver. It can also engage from high above or below the Z axis avoiding part of enemy weapon arcs making it uniquely flexible for 3 dimensional tactics... which are sadly little or never exploited to any great effect by close-minded experts who think purely about frontal damage output.

Often in fleet runs, a bunch of escorts (whose pilots have been here since beta) were to me, a bit slow to demolish certain targets in HSE. They were afraid to take enemy damage so remained at a range where cannon damage diminished. Occasionally, people blow up from OP plasma torpedo spread attacks. That's where a single Omega cruiser closed in to point blank range, easily tanked NPC damage and blew up said boss target by its lonesome.

ESTFs are static missions. They, unlike real life combat scenarios, do not give nasty surprises. This fixed environment should be the perfect chance for players to develop new tactics and new ship builds to win the engagement no matter what ship type is used.

Competently outfitted, any T4 and T5 ship type is generally capable of winning said ESTF, including lame space whales. The limitation is not in the ship, per se (not to mention there are plenty of very capable "multi role" ships to choose from now) but in the end users' ability to solve problems with the tools at their disposal, not just complain endlessly and expect changes to be made immediately.
STF Flight Instructor since Early 2012. Newbies are the reason why STO lives and breathes today. Do not discriminate.

My Youtube Channel

Last edited by carmenara; 01-06-2013 at 08:29 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,204
# 454
01-07-2013, 07:12 AM
Just chose my Engineer with his Sci-Ody for a few ESTFs, just to see how UP Cruisers are. They are so UP, they can tank multiple enemies (TacCube+Gate+ a few Spheres) while doing at least a third of the damage of an escort.

Now I flew Kithomer. Helped one Tac with an Star Cruiser -ugly ship btw. - and killed a cube for him, left him alone to help on the other side. He just had to destroy the transformer (somebody else did the probes) and while I destroyed 4 Gens, 1 Cube, 1 Transformer -alone- and fired with two other people on the gate, until its HP fell under 40%, then he managed to destroy the transformator (I mentioned that before: He was tac, with ATA etc.)...

There is nothing wrong with Cruisers, and let alone beams -of course I would like a them more powerful, but so would I like more powerful DHC for my Tac ). Mostly its the pilot doing one error after another.

Yesterday I flew 1on1 with a Tac in a Fleet Defiant. He is a decent player, but not one of the top. Yet, while he just scratched my shields, I depleted his, an won. I know his build, its mostly standard escort. So again, Cruiser do there role pretty nice.

The whining about users UP is more like a religious war than anything else.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,766
# 455
01-07-2013, 07:23 AM
[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by reynoldsxd View Post

Fed cruisers have no mobility to speak of, they have horrible damage potential and their defense is basically crippled by thd fact that just about anybody can sit in their rear arcs with no effort at all, and thanks to apo and consorts the whol tractor/plasma stuff does absolutly nothing to stop those people from sitting behind a fed whale forever.
Then possibly a change to ApO is needed since cycling the power has made Holds obsolete. Holds mind you which are suppossed to bE the bane of the Escort class.

Quote:
There is no gamepaly reason for this, the game would not suddenly change overnight if you gave fed cruisers the mobility of klinkers (or basically klinker mobility -1) but you would remedy an injust disadvantage that FED cruisers NVER got any compensation for.
This idea has been tabled and retabled many times. A 1-2 point turnrate increase for the feds without going over the KDF existing stats.

Quote:
Feds have ****ty mobility, and they do get nothing. They do not tank better, they sure as hell do not do more damage (how could they, beam arrays are such a horrible weapon) and that leaves the question: why was this done the way it was done?
Beam Arrays where great when BFaw was 100% accurate. They changed it to not be 100% accurate and the BA has never been the same since.

Quote:
heck, star trek even demonstrated that crusiers are surprisingly nimble (yes they won't out turn a small agile ship, but alas: noone asks for that.) and good jack of all trades.
In my opinion the Cruiser is the jack of all trades. Good at many things but not exceling at any of them.

Quote:
redo FAW so that it acts like the beam version of rapdid fire, do a scatter volley for equivalent for spam removal.
No. Keep fae as the AoE for beams and create a new Beam Rapid Fire BOff ability.

Quote:
You need to remebe that not only tac captains are populating the game! Yes, tacs can buiff arrays to become a somewhat useful weapon for the duration of their buffs, but after that its back to "oh look it tickeles". Science and engineering capotains do not even get the chance.
Tac Captains only have two abilities that buff them and no one else. ApA and GDF. TacFleet helps everyone in range up to a maximum of 5 I believe, just like all the Fleet Abilities.

Quote:
Well used Engineering captains in a cruisers are the epitomy of annoying damange sponge, but they just don't DO anything aside lobbing a heal once in a while (so... 6k from that aux to sif 6 is... exactly one dhc volley. wow.... that was worth it not having a tac captain instead to actuall contribute....).
That A2Sif also gives an Aux buffed All Damage Resist on top of that heal and can be repeated almost every 15 seconds.





Quote:
But ok, back to basics:

klinks get mobility, tank and damage.

Feds get nothing. Bring feds up to klink levels without making them klinks (meaning no dhc for fed cruisers, so unnerf the bloody arrays already!)
I agree, the feds Cruiser need better turnrates, (or another idea is give fed cruiser a better Zero-axis spin rate to make rotating shield facings easier), but Beam Arrays where not nerfed in any way that I know of.
Just BFAW at the playerbases request since it was too OP at 100% accuracy.

On a side note; Flying a Tac toon in the worst KDF cruiser ever (BortasQu) using all Beam Arrays seemed fine to me using the techniques given here and elswhere to increase Cruiser damage and viability. Seems to me that if one wants a Tactical Cruiser then one needs to play a Tac Toon as your primary as its thier job do be the damage heavy class.
Richard Hamilton (1975-2014)
goodbye good friend. We will see you in the DMZ in the sky oneday, save a shot for us.

Last edited by bitemepwe; 01-07-2013 at 07:35 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,350
# 456
01-07-2013, 07:35 AM
[quote=bitemepwe;7382941]
Quote:

I agree, the feds Cruiser need better turnrates, (or another idea is give fed cruiser a better Zero-axis spin rate to make rotating shield facings easier), but Beam Arrays where not nerfed in any way that I know of.
Just BFAW at the playerbases request since it was too OP at 100% accuracy.
I'm not so sure you will see much of an improvement with that. An increase of 1' base turn rate will not equate to a 1' improvement on these ships because of the inertia values. Most cruiser captains seem not to be as situation aware as escort pilots seem to be and don't take precautionary action to start moving their ships to a different facing to get a new shield arc. Its pretty much not the cruisers nature anyways. It can be done, but the captain needs to be thinking two steps ahead. Any cruiser captain worth their salt knows how to use evasive maneuvers and various engineer skills to make emergency maneuvering crisper.

Zero axis spin rate might be good but I have to think more about it.

My suggestion would be to up the shield modifier for cruisers a tad (and sci' ships by the same percentage to match) to give a little bit more time for good cruiser captains to make adjustments.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,766
# 457
01-07-2013, 07:42 AM
[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by whamhammer1 View Post

I'm not so sure you will see much of an improvement with that. An increase of 1' base turn rate will not equate to a 1' improvement on these ships because of the inertia values.
I was assuming that with Turnrate changes would also be Enertia changes to help.

Quote:
Most cruiser captains seem not to be as situation aware as escort pilots seem to be and don't take precautionary action to start moving their ships to a different facing to get a new shield arc. Its pretty much not the cruisers nature anyways. It can be done, but the captain needs to be thinking two steps ahead. Any cruiser captain worth their salt knows how to use evasive maneuvers and various engineer skills to make emergency maneuvering crisper.
Then they need to share this info and bring the less-caring Cruiser players up to speed.

Quote:
My suggestion would be to up the shield modifier for cruisers a tad (and sci' ships by the same percentage to match) to give a little bit more time for good cruiser captains to make adjustments.
I disagree. Science already has a buffed shielding system beyond everyone else in the game and Cruiser have access to the better Heals and resists abilities. Thier shielding is not the issue as any competant Cruiser player can buff themselves to the point of bouncing multiple Escort attacks long enough to escape or attempt some other combat technique.
Richard Hamilton (1975-2014)
goodbye good friend. We will see you in the DMZ in the sky oneday, save a shot for us.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 622
# 458
01-07-2013, 08:18 AM
[quote=bitemepwe;7383081]
Quote:
I was assuming that with Turnrate changes would also be Enertia changes to help.


Then they need to share this info and bring the less-caring Cruiser players up to speed.



I disagree. Science already has a buffed shielding system beyond everyone else in the game and Cruiser have access to the better Heals and resists abilities. Thier shielding is not the issue as any competant Cruiser player can buff themselves to the point of bouncing multiple Escort attacks long enough to escape or attempt some other combat technique.
Remember that horribly bad TNG episode full of carnies on the holodeck?

Juggler: "I was just juggling... and I happened to catch one in my mouth. It tasted good, so I ate it. Then before I knew it, I'd eaten every one of my worlds. It hadn't occurred to me that, once they were gone, I'd have nothing left to juggle. If you ever have a world, plan ahead. Don't eat it."

They want to juggle their worlds and eat them too.
All cloaks should be canon.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,350
# 459
01-07-2013, 08:22 AM
[quote=bitemepwe;7383081]
Quote:
I was assuming that with Turnrate changes would also be Enertia changes to help.
Changing the inertial values would only work if it was converted to a percentage value and then changed along ALL vessels in the game to be effective. I would love to have my Excel' turning close to 30' (maybe not, I might have to install over 700 barf bags then). The inertial values are needed to represent the mass of the ship and how it reacts in overcoming the mass (and gravitational effect of pulls from every other object in the universe).

Plus inertial values can already be decreased (for a time) with AuxID, maybe AuxID needs a small boosting of effectiveness as an incentive for its use.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bitemepwe View Post
Then they need to share this info and bring the less-caring Cruiser players up to speed.
I think I just did


Quote:
Originally Posted by bitemepwe View Post
I disagree. Science already has a buffed shielding system beyond everyone else in the game and Cruiser have access to the better Heals and resists abilities. Thier shielding is not the issue as any competant Cruiser player can buff themselves to the point of bouncing multiple Escort attacks long enough to escape or attempt some other combat technique.
Only reason why I suggested upping science ships was to keep the parity between the two ship classes. Its just a counter idea to yours.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,350
# 460
01-07-2013, 08:25 AM
[quote=bloctoad;7383411]
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitemepwe View Post

Remember that horribly bad TNG episode full of carnies on the holodeck?

Juggler: "I was just juggling... and I happened to catch one in my mouth. It tasted good, so I ate it. Then before I knew it, I'd eaten every one of my worlds. It hadn't occurred to me that, once they were gone, I'd have nothing left to juggle. If you ever have a world, plan ahead. Don't eat it."

They want to juggle their worlds and eat them too.
Not all Feddie' cruiser captains want that. I've spent most of my time defending against insane changes that will make cruisers OP and instead offering changes in weapons(that will have the same benefits for KDF) as well as education.
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:04 AM.