Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,966
# 511
01-09-2013, 10:54 AM
Response in Blue
Quote:
Originally Posted by skyranger1414 View Post
Originally Posted by bareel View Post
Some thoughts added in RED.


Also, don't get me wrong I'm perfectly fine with a cruiser getting a paper thin tank like an escort if it goes offensive in the interest of the trinity balance because it doesn't matter at all.

You realize I'm sure that what you ask would also necessitate other tweaks to the ship class, essentially you want escorts with cruiser skins.

Incorrect as I've said a dozen times. Equal but different is my prefered style. Cruisers can be better at long range engagements, or ones that require accuracy or any large number of various ways to deferential the ships and their styles while still allowing them to perform at a similar level. Escorts can speed tank, escorts excel at close range burst. The issue is cruisers excel at nothing.

If stacking Emergency power to Weapons 3 with Directed Energy Modulation 3 was nearly as effective as stacking CRF + AP:B for beams we wouldn't have this issue. If beams were not total garbage compared to DHCs we wouldn't have this issue. If cruisers had a built in energy drain resistance, then their would be no problem.

Incredibly WE don't have a problem. YOU perceive you have one. For all your talk of former hardcore trinity MMO experience I'm honestly surprised at you missing the boat so badly about this. Cruiser's powers and abilities tend toward the defensive by design. They are not designed to work like or do the same job as escorts. A case could be made Fed cruisers are limited compared to their KDF counterparts, but that is a discrepancy ingrained many, many design choices removed from what the game is today.

I am sick and tired of the trinity MMO. It is stale, outdated, and shows a limited developer ability to creatively design characters and encounters. If I wanted trinity I'd play something that has it. And just because they are working as designed if that original design concept is not working it should be changed.

But no, instead all of the above is false. Tac boff abilities provide the highest amount of damage. DHCs have all the advantages for weapon choice right now, even DEM works better with them than it does beams. And beams even work better on an escort than a cruiser thanks to the fact of going from 7 to 8 beams not being much of a boon and letting half your guns going silent to bring a torp to bear while piloting a whale is not the brightest idea. Not to mention beams work better when you have an APB3 so their damage isn't complete garbage.

7 to 8 beams?? 7 beams is only an option these days with the coming of the Rom Rep beam. Why would anyone run 7 much less 8 beams before is beyond me. It was well known to eat up too much energy, so much as to be counterproductive. As to move out of arc to fire a torp.... the 180 degree torp is available now, you keep forgetting that. No worries I'll keep reminding you.


Wrong. Seven beams while over-capping energy is the only way to be even remotely competitive in the past your ignorance of the game mechanics astounds me. In addition having a ship style being viable only if I buy a 25USD torpedo and/or use plasma weapons exclusively is not acceptable at all. If the 180 degree torp was a standard variant, and if it wasn't garbage to begin with you might have a point.

How long do you think it will be until nearly every ship you see in PvE is either an escort or one of these so called new destroyer classes? Or a lockbox style battlecruiser? If this game had a hardcore playerbase you would get blacklisted for groups if you didn't bring one of the above for everything aside from Hive, Starbase Blockade, and possibly No Win although I have little experience with that one.

First off, STO is not a hardcore game. Asking hypothetical what ifs around that is silly and pointless. As to your other tiding of doom, that soon everyone will be seen flying around a tactical zippy uber death machine.... how long have you played? I've been around a long time and I STILL seem to see cruisers being used PvE. Heck, now and then I even see one that has bothered to learn to play and will hold agro for the group. Of course too often you end up seeying cruisers running away from spheres.... that's not a failure of the class.

The idea of a trinity game design necessitates a minor amount of 'hardcore' approach. And yes I do see players using cruisers a ton in PvE still. I also hear them complain the content is too difficult and the grind takes too long.

I'd even put down good money many (not all) of those who thing the game is too grindy are not doing the grind efficiently with the proper ships.

As it turns out different types of ships are better for different grinds. While admittedly annoying its probably the way it should be.

Name one single grind where anything other than high DPS works best? I dare you. Omega Marks are best to get by doing ISE and CSE with a solid group. By solid group I am referring to 5 high DPS ships that know how to crossheal and can do them in around 5 minutes each. Rommie daily is actually faster than rommie rabbit farming when you can bang out 75 marks in about 10-15 minutes baring lucky doff crits. Fleet Marks are best to earn by doing battleship royal in about ten minutes getting nearly 1k dil along with them and 300+ K EC.
Just as a reference it took me longer to type this post than to get 4k dil with my KDF Tac Fleet Vor'Cha. Sad isn't it.

Last edited by bareel; 01-09-2013 at 10:58 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,966
# 512
01-09-2013, 11:54 AM
Let me detail what I would love to see a little bit for you with the equal but different both in character design and encounter.

Offense
Cruisers: Sustained damage output at long range and accurate.
Escorts: Spike damage output at close range, penetrating resists.
Sci Vessel: Mix of above

Defense
Cruiser: Resist tank, has highest resists
Escort: Speed tank, avoidance
Sci Vessel: Buffer/sustain tank, can regen shield quickly and has highest amount

Utility
Cruiser: Blend of minor CC and team defense abilities
Escort: Target debuffing
Sci Vessel: Movement CC, and hard CC

Right now we are kinda like that but not really. Now let us take an encounter and push it to that point.

KASE Mobs Redone.

Cubes: These will be as they are now but have a penetrating attack that will ignore a good portion of a cruisers resistance. They will also be vulnerable to a Sci Vessel's hard CC due to being encountered one at a time.

*So a cruiser would struggle a bit tanking these but with the right CC and/or burst from escorts they would go down pretty easily.

Spheres: Spawn in groups with high maneuverability and accurate attacks making them an escorts nightmare. Vulnerable to movement CC and have low resists but decent HPs.

*An escorts nightmare. Hard to line up and will hurt atleast until a gravity well or warp plasma stops their movement. Or the cruiser could simply FAW them to death.

Probes: High resist amounts but slow moving. Also the spawn cooldown will not begin until current ones are defeated allowing movement CC to be nearly as effective as killing them would be.

*An escort could quickly scatter volley them down, or repulsars could stall them, or whatever you desire really.

Gates: Get within 8km and die, simple as that.

*Escort would take longer to kill it provided beams did more dps than dhcs at extreme ranges when all is said and done. But an APB 3 will still get it dead faster for the party.

Tac Cube: Will have an accurate long range attack that has cannon range penalties and extremely high resist. Also be difficult to CC due to innate resist rates. However will also have a dead zone for the long range attack that escorts can exploit if in really close. This ship will also have the ability to target more than one player with different weapon abilities and attacks using a photonic shockwave that can be stripped before it goes off occasionally along with subsystem disabling abilities.

*And here we have a combination of the team cleansing, cross-healing, and fighting for proper positioning.


Different but equal. All could be taken down with a variety of ships and abilities without anyone feeling like they are not contributing because their ship lacks the 'raw DPS'.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 108
# 513
01-09-2013, 01:37 PM
While i do not have a KDF toon, I believe the real problem is, as stated earlier, nearly the entire PVE portion of this game is a gun fight. Even in ESTF no one has to tank especially if team mates cross heal.

All pve content is doable in all three ships. The reason for this is boff healing is too efficent at ensign at lt. lvl skills. This is allowing any class ship to "tank" with little to no support. Also it makes the cruisers upper tier boff abilities redundent as the lower ones work just as well.

If escorts had to actually pilot doing strafing runs instead of being able to yo-yo, dps would equal out. A couple easy fixes would be to either tie healing to ships intial shield/hull hp, or crew size. And/or have resistance penlties/bonuses based on ship classes.

Those little changes would actually allow a cruisers "support" ability to be usefull and needed, at least in end game content.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,966
# 514
01-09-2013, 02:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by allmytee View Post
All pve content is doable in all three ships. The reason for this is boff healing is too efficent at ensign at lt. lvl skills. This is allowing any class ship to "tank" with little to no support. Also it makes the cruisers upper tier boff abilities redundent as the lower ones work just as well.

If escorts had to actually pilot doing strafing runs instead of being able to yo-yo, dps would equal out. A couple easy fixes would be to either tie healing to ships intial shield/hull hp, or crew size. And/or have resistance penlties/bonuses based on ship classes.

Those little changes would actually allow a cruisers "support" ability to be usefull and needed, at least in end game content.
No thank you. I do not want the holy trinity in any form especially in a game with a queue system like this one. Imagine getting a PuG with two cruisers who don't know how to tank or heal and three escorts exploding all the time it would be a nightmare.

Nerfs are not the answer, atleast not direct nerfs like you proposed. And it is not the healing that is the issue it is the resist stacking that allows a ship to tank the healing is of secondary importance.

You could achieve the same exact result by making current borg deal double their current damage then properly built cruisers could tank it or keep teammates alive in the current system. I doubt that would go over very well.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,912
# 515
01-09-2013, 04:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bareel View Post
You could achieve the same exact result by making current borg deal double their current damage then properly built cruisers could tank it or keep teammates alive in the current system. I doubt that would go over very well.
Umm... No thanks? I don't like the idea of dying because I wanted my cruiser to have a 60/40 tank/dmg balance, thanks anyway
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,966
# 516
01-09-2013, 05:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by adamkafei View Post
Umm... No thanks? I don't like the idea of dying because I wanted my cruiser to have a 60/40 tank/dmg balance, thanks anyway
I was being sarcastic it would be a bad idea.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,691
# 517
01-09-2013, 06:37 PM
@bareel

I've said many times before that If possible an equal but different approach to ship design would be better, but that it would require an NGE style shakeup that Cryptic just isn't capable of doing. They are incapable of getting even small things right the first time, can you imagine the giant mess it'd be if they really went at the way space combat and ship design works?

For me its a clear case of simply accepting that the game was designed a certain way (due to lack of time, wanting to be like WoW, not knowing any better, etc) and that I prefer it stay the way it is than expecting Cryptic to act against type and getting a total rework right. For what its worth I do believe an equal but different approach was the starting concept but it was changed partway through and implemented poorly to boot and has been tweaked to what we have now, a soft trinity. You don't have to have any specific kind of ship or captain class, all are good. In essence this is the cause of what you perceive as a problem and I as a design decision. You feel compelled to rage against the current design while I keep saying cruisers are designed to tend towards a role. KDF cruisers break this paradigm though, but I lump it in with all those other little benefits the KDF gets to get people to play them more (but in fact has ended up making the KDF a faction of farmers ).

Finally, I find I place higher when I take my cruiser to Starbase 24 than my escort. I will admit that may very well be a case of playstyle influencing things more than ship design. But for target rich environments cruisers are my preferred ship.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,757
# 518
01-10-2013, 11:43 AM
[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by bareel View Post
Part of the issue with cruisers is that the hull itself adds nothing.
I agree, the sheer mass differences between vessels should count for something but given how easy it is to kill hull, it doesn't play enough role in combat.

Quote:
Finally the maneuverability and speed penalty does hurt sometimes but not always.
There is no doubts that Cruisers need a turn buff.
Speed penalty I do not understand. Only 10% seperates an escort from a Cruiser. All other bonuses from skills, equipment, etc to defense are availible to any class.

Quote:
The other issue is the boffs. Engineering boff abilities beyond the ensign level do very little comparatively speaking.
Then the lower tier abilities need to be re-adjusted to not be so useful over the higher tier ones. Of course this exists on all classes to apoint. Take TT for example, TT1 is all you need to use ingame.

Quote:
The final issue is the beam array under-performing by a long shot.
A truth I agree with but I feel they under perform do to drain issues. Spread thier drain on the firing cycle instead of how its is currently done on a shot per shot basis.

Quote:
And no, it is not that I do not know how to build the ships
I did not think it was.

Quote:
*edit addon*
It is not that I hate escorts either. Infact I love escorts.
I should have better clarified my use of dislike in my post. My mistake.

Quote:
Even Hilbert and other PvP players, anyone really will tell you. If your going to PvE use an escort it is so much faster why wouldn't you?
I wouldn't but then again the game is not a race, so why should one feel the need to move so quickly if nothing is forcing you to do so?

Mainly though I was just curiuos if the time-sink issue was the primary issue of why Cruiser players are upset.
Roy Hatch (stryker) soldier, friend, and good man.
1945-2014
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Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,966
# 519
01-10-2013, 12:12 PM
[quote=bitemepwe;7425161]
Quote:
Mainly though I was just curiuos if the time-sink issue was the primary issue of why Cruiser players are upset.
Yes. Even if you sink all offense into the stupid things the difference is to large for myself to ignore.

To use a comparison you might relate to. When you build your PvP ships you tend to gravitate towards 'fun' builds as opposed to broken OP if I am not mistaken. You enjoy flying a variety of ships and styles of ships so to speak.

But you still have a 'minimum performance bar' no matter how fun the ship is or how much you like it. If it cannot hold its own then you will not fly it. It doesn't have to be the best ship or the best build but it does need to be competitive right?

Same with me except in PvE. I don't mind taking say ten or twenty percent longer to run a daily. I do mind taking nearly twice as long.
Ensign
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 27
# 520
01-10-2013, 01:22 PM
No need for a "Compilation".

Reason is because the crew-mechanisms are not working or to be more precise: They are in the game for cosmetic reasons.

Crew is irrelevant = cruisers are UP

Period.

(To avoid misunderstandings, by crew I mean: http://www.stowiki.org/Crew)
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